Rumor- 1.1.3 iPod Touch can now play video with old Universal Dock

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madmaxmedia

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I found this posting, not sure if it's true or not-

http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25964

I bit the bullet and upgraded my Jailbroken 1.1.2 Ipod and purchased the $20 pack. And to my surprise the TV-Out finally works with regular RCA cables. I just used my old camcorder cable with 1/4" jack one side and the yellow, red, white on the other.

I plugged in the 1/4" jack into my Universal Dock and the Red cable to the Yellow jack on my TV (I'm not sure which is left and right but plugged in the remaining Yellow and White into the jacks).

Next I put in my Ipod Touch into the Dock and played a movie. Viola - works perfect off my old cable and the picture looks excellent.
IIRC the new Universal dock does not output composite video through its minijack, so he must be talking about the old dock. And if this is correct, then there is no authentication chip. But I don't know if this is accurate information or not.

Can someone try this? I have neither a 1.1.3 iPod Touch nor a old Universal dock.

Please note that the s-video output will likely not work, but if this report is true you would be able to use a camcorder type cable plugged into the old dock. But the cable has to be connected to the old Universal dock, not directly to the iPod Touch headphone jack.

Thanks,
Steve
 

BlackWolf

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madmaxmedia said:
I found this posting, not sure if it's true or not-

http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25964



IIRC the new Universal dock does not output composite video through its minijack, so he must be talking about the old dock. And if this is correct, then there is no authentication chip. But I don't know if this is accurate information or not.

Can someone try this? I have neither a 1.1.3 iPod Touch nor a old Universal dock.

Please note that the s-video output will likely not work, but if this report is true you would be able to use a camcorder type cable plugged into the old dock. But the cable has to be connected to the old Universal dock, not directly to the iPod Touch headphone jack.

Thanks,
Steve
I don't have 1.1.3 either so unfortunatly I can't tell you, but: if no chip was needed shouldn't it be possible to use the headphone jack to output video as well?
 
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Actually, the original Universal Dock does have an authentication chip in it, just not a video-specific authentication chip.

The new models of iPod classic and iPod nano will also both play video out through the original 2005 Universal Dock, and in fact there are several other authentication-chip based accessories such as voice recorders that will also trigger the video-output feature (in fact, if you have one of these devices, you can start video out with them, and then transfer the iPod, while the video is still playing, over to an older Dock Connector based video accessory).

The iPhone and iPod touch, however, have traditionally looked for a video-specific authentication chip before offering video playback, whereas the iPod classic and iPod nano are merely concerned about the presence of just about any authentication chip.

Not having a Universal Dock with me right now (I'm at the Macworld Expo), I can't specifically test this, but it will be interesting to see if the option is now available on the v1.1.3 firmware.
 

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Well, I just checked on my iPod touch running 1.1.3 and it doesn't output video from the minijack or from the minijack on the older universal dock (the one with the IR sensor and s-video output capabilities. The older universal dock was never compatible with the iPod touch or the iPhone and it still isn't. This is because the iPod touch requires that you have the authentication chip for video output. In fact, all current generation iPods require the Apple authentication chip to output video using either the new composite or component videos. You can use the older dock with the 3G iPod and iPod classic for s-video output only.

So the firmware updates didn't change anything.
 

writedawg

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This rumor is confirmed - by me - just now.

Video output on the iPod Touch works perfectly fine on the old (round IR sensor) Universal Dock. It outputs through the AV Cable - (RCA) - and through the S-Video output. Just as before.

All this talk about some chip being needed is bunk - it's working just like my old 5G iPod and all I did was upgrade to 1.1.3

As an interesting addition - I have iPhone Remote installed on my computer - which allows me to stream video from my Mac and back-up external drives on my iPod Touch - and the video from that - which starts playing in Safari - also plays through the TV out. All that makes the iPod Touch into a fairly cool streaming video player.
 

madmaxmedia

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Thanks for the info, much appreciated!

Actually, this raises a few more interesting questions-

1. Jhollington above says the original dock has an authentication chip, just not the video authentication chip. That does strike me as a bit odd though, since 3rd party docks have always worked fine, so not sure what another authentication chip would be there for.

2. If there is an video authentication chip in the new dock, then why does the old dock now work? If there isn't an authentication chip in the new dock, why does it now work where it couldn't work before? ;)

3. The Appleinsider article said that s-video out was removed from the dock connector, to make room for component video output. But that seems not to be the case, if with 1.1.3 a Touch can output video through the old s-video jack on the older dock. Can this be changed through firmware/software, or are the dock pin-outs hard-wired?

4. I wonder if the Touch will now output video through 3rd-party devices -docks, video displays, etc.?

Or is there still something special about even the old Apple dock? (This doesn't seem to make sense, since the old iPods worked equally well with the old Apple dock and 3rd-party devices.)

It seems like no one really knows for sure what is going on. Or at least everyone is doing their best to interpret what is going on in the black box (or should I say black chip), but there are different conflicting reports and pieces of info out there...

writedawg said:
This rumor is confirmed - by me - just now.

Video output on the iPod Touch works perfectly fine on the old (round IR sensor) Universal Dock. It outputs through the AV Cable - (RCA) - and through the S-Video output. Just as before.

All this talk about some chip being needed is bunk - it's working just like my old 5G iPod and all I did was upgrade to 1.1.3

As an interesting addition - I have iPhone Remote installed on my computer - which allows me to stream video from my Mac and back-up external drives on my iPod Touch - and the video from that - which starts playing in Safari - also plays through the TV out. All that makes the iPod Touch into a fairly cool streaming video player.
 
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madmaxmedia said:
1. Jhollington above says the original dock has an authentication chip, just not the video authentication chip. That does strike me as a bit odd though, since 3rd party docks have always worked fine, so not sure what another authentication chip would be there for.
Authentication chips are used by Apple for a number of things, and since Apple makes the authentication chips, they started putting them into just about all of their accessories around the time they released the spec -- when the original 5G iPod came out.

The first purpose for the authentication chip was for third-party voice recorders -- in fact this is the reason it took so long for the first 5G-compatible iPod voice recorders to appear.... The accessory manufacturers (Griffin, Belkin, et al), were having problems getting sufficient quantities of the authentication chips from Apple in order to mass-produce their accessories beyond the prototype stage.

Authentication chips are also used to trigger other features on the 5G iPod and nano -- the iPod camera connector, the Nike+ Sport Kit, the Apple FM Radio/Remote, and the iPod Hi-Fi all use authentication chips to enable their various functions.

Keep in mind that thus far the iPod classic and iPod nano do not require a video-specific authentication chip, whereas the iPod touch and the iPhone do -- at least up to version 1.1.2. I have not yet been able to personally test v1.1.3, so I cannot confirm or deny the rumour that it works with either universal dock.

2. If there is an video authentication chip in the new dock, then why does the old dock now work? If there isn't an authentication chip in the new dock, why does it now work where it couldn't work before? ;)
The new dock does not have a video authentication chip -- just a general one it seems. Both docks will enable the video output capabilities on the iPod classic and iPod nano, but the problem is that the 2007 Universal Dock does not have the actual electrical connections to pass the video output through the line-out jack -- it's basically just missing the necessary wires, as compared to the 2005 Universal Dock.

As for why the iPod touch may now work, the authentication chip requirement is entirely in the firmware -- it is not a hardware restriction. Apple could remove this authentication chip restriction simply by taking it out of the firmware update -- if the iPod touch now outputs video through the old universal dock, it would appear that this is exactly what they've done -- be it deliberately or by accident.

Part of the issue with the distinction between the iPod classic/nano and the iPod touch/iPhone is simply because of the way video output is triggered on each of these devices -- with the iPod classic/nano you have to turn on the video output in the settings, whereas with the iPod touch and iPhone, it will always prompt you when you start playing a video if a compatible accessory is attached -- it's therefore more important with these devices to ensure that a video-compatible accessory is attached, otherwise the prompt is going to be irrelevant and confusing to the user.

3. The Appleinsider article said that s-video out was removed from the dock connector, to make room for component video output. But that seems not to be the case, if with 1.1.3 a Touch can output video through the old s-video jack on the older dock. Can this be changed through firmware/software, or are the dock pin-outs hard-wired?
While the Appleinsider article is relatively informative in terms of the general aspects of video output, the points it makes about the authentication chip and Dock Connector wiring being rearranged is pure Apple-apologist bunk.

The never was a separate S-Video output channel on the Dock Connector -- there has only ever been one video output channel, and this has not changed. It just so happened that the 2005 Universal Dock provided both an S-Video and component-based output (ie, the dock provided two outputs for the same signal).

The evidence that the pinouts have not changed is very simple: Connect the iPod (classic/nano) to an authentication-chip video accessory, such as the new Apple AV cables, and then, while the movie is playing, remove the cable from the Dock Connector port and connect the iPod to any 5G-compatible accessory, whether it be S-Video or component based -- the video will continue to play, and will play properly through the older accessory.

This is obviously a little bit harder to provide with the iPod touch, unless v1.1.3 behaves differently, since the iPod touch and iPhone will stop the video when the cable is removed.

4. I wonder if the Touch will now output video through 3rd-party devices -docks, video displays, etc.?
Probably not. Since most older docks do not signal their capabilities to the device at all, the iPod touch would have no way of knowing if a compatible accessory is attached. It would be ludicrous for it to always prompt to enable TV Output just in case a video accessory is attached.

Or is there still something special about even the old Apple dock? (This doesn't seem to make sense, since the old iPods worked equally well with the old Apple dock and 3rd-party devices.)
The old Apple Dock did have an authentication chip, but the 5G couldn't care less about authentication chips for the purposes of video playback. The most likely reason for the authentication chip in the 2005 Universal Dock was to enable the pass-through volume control on the iPod itself (the ability to adjust the dock and iPod volume together -- a feature that is also common to the iPod HiFi).

It seems like no one really knows for sure what is going on. Or at least everyone is doing their best to interpret what is going on in the black box (or should I say black chip), but there are different conflicting reports and pieces of info out there...
Well, we've spent the last week at Macworld talking with a number of the major accessory manufacturers, and they're quite clear on the presence of the authentication chip and what it's there for, as they're now required to build their devices with them if they want to enable video playback.

In fact, those manufacturers that don't want to provide video playback through their accessories are being required by Apple to take out any video output features in order to remain "Made-for-iPod" compatible, since if there isn't an authentication chip, video output cannot be provided. A good example of this is the Altec Lansing iM600, which used to include a video-out port. Altec Lansing quietly removed this port in all models produced after last September, since they had no desire to retool their process to include an authentication chip just to provide a video output feature on a device that doesn't really need it.

The Apple authentication chips are not a myth or a "conspiracy theory" as some have claimed, and they're nothing new. This is also not a word that's been made up by us or anybody else in the blogsphere.... "Authentication Chip" is Apple's own terminology for them, but of course you won't find much mention of it outside of their Made-for-iPod program and possibly a few support documents that might be hiding on their site.

The problem is that there are a number of Apple apologists out there who are unwilling to believe that Apple could ever do anything wrong. While I've always been one to give Apple the benefit of the doubt in many cases, I'm not blind to their faults, and this is one area where I will freely admit that they've made a very poor decision, both in terms of changing their original policy on the authentication chips (that they would never use them to lock down existing features -- only new features), and in not advising their third-party accessory manufacturers of this change until after the new iPod models were released (thereby resulting in a serious deficiency of options for video-capable accessories).
 

madmaxmedia

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Thanks for taking the time to post the detailed reply, I am still reading but it does clarify a lot of things. Especially what you've found out at MacWorld. It seemed odd that there would suddenly be an authentication chip just to cripple video playback in the new iPods, but now I understand this is from a general standpoint of Apple exerting control over potentially all 3rd party devices (that have certain functions) that utilize the dock connector.

I guess from an outsider-standpoint, I wanted to believe there was no authentication chip. But as an iPod Touch owner as well as a potential Classic owner, all the reports of incompatible video playback were quite alarming. The funny thing is that the explanation by AppleInsider seemed to make a lot more sense (why would Apple suddenly void a bunch of 3rd party Apple peripherals for seemingly no good reason?), and as customers we have no direct knowledge of what's going on. People are still complaining at the Apple.com discussion boards, yet there's been no peep from Apple.

The thing that bothers me the most about all this, as you say, is the way Apple 'pulled the rug' from under customers and accessory makers with the new iPods. It seems incredibly shortsighted (or more just inconsiderate) to make a bunch of iPod-specific video display units (Sonic Impact Video 55, etc.) incompatible with the new iPods (at least the Classic model, which has the same footprint and basic functionality as the 5/5.5G.)
 
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madmaxmedia

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The other interesting thing is that apparently there was a workaround with the Classic and the Sonic Impact Video 55 (I found this in the Apple.com discussions, and was verified by multiple posters). It didn't require the new video out cable either.

But it was only with an older firmware, the method no longer works. So now of course the old firmware will live on via rapidshare, etc.
 

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writedawg said:
This rumor is confirmed - by me - just now.

Video output on the iPod Touch works perfectly fine on the old (round IR sensor) Universal Dock. It outputs through the AV Cable - (RCA) - and through the S-Video output. Just as before.

All this talk about some chip being needed is bunk - it's working just like my old 5G iPod and all I did was upgrade to 1.1.3

As an interesting addition - I have iPhone Remote installed on my computer - which allows me to stream video from my Mac and back-up external drives on my iPod Touch - and the video from that - which starts playing in Safari - also plays through the TV out. All that makes the iPod Touch into a fairly cool streaming video player.
I am keen to watch my mp4s through my TV can someone place part numbers of the docks that work i know they are old but im gonna look on fleabay for one, but not sure which to buy.

Thx Dave
 
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The iPod Universal dock works with the iPod classic & the iPhone for out to TV. I just connected my iPhone and it is giving me a picture. I have firmware version 1.1.3 on my iPhone. You have to place the iPhone in the dock first and then start the video in that order. When doing it this way the message appears on the screen "display on TV", yes/no.

If you start the video to play first and then connect the iPhone in the dock you will get the message saying "this accessory is not made to work with iPhone". Do you want to turn on airplane mode?

Learn about iPod Universal Dock
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300277

This dock wasn't working with the iPhone previously but now it does.
 

kornchild2002

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honeybee1236 said:
The iPod Universal dock works with the iPod classic & the iPhone for out to TV. I just connected my iPhone and it is giving me a picture. I have firmware version 1.1.3 on my iPhone. You have to place the iPhone in the dock first and then start the video in that order. When doing it this way the message appears on the screen "display on TV", yes/no.

If you start the video to play first and then connect the iPhone in the dock you will get the message saying "this accessory is not made to work with iPhone". Do you want to turn on airplane mode?

Learn about iPod Universal Dock
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300277

This dock wasn't working with the iPhone previously but now it does.
Yep, there is a method to the madness. You pretty much have to do the same thing with the iPod touch. That is why I said mine didn't work. Because I fired up my iPod touch, went to the video section, and plugged my iPod touch into the dock. It refused to output even the audio through the dock connector. However, I recently tried it again when a similar post was brought up. I connected my iPod touch first, went to the video section, selected a video, and then it asked me if I wanted to output it to my TV. So it looks like firmware 1.1.3 loosened up video output. I just wonder if this is a bug in the firmware or something that Apple meant to do. If it is a bug then I wonder how long it is going to take them to fix it. It was done on purpose then I hope the movie companies don't get upset and make Apple change it back.
 
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I was wondering if it was a bug myself since it doesn't make much sense to do it one specific way. It seems like it should work either way but it doesn't. I'm also using my Apple AV cable I purchased for $19.
 
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I should point out that it's the original 2005 Apple Universal Dock that works, not the 2007 model. Firmware v1.1.3 is also required, of course.

The 2007 Apple Universal Dock will work with the Apple AV cables, of course, but that's to be expected and was the case all along, since the cables themselves trigger the video output when connected to the iPod touch or iPhone directly (for the record, just about any dock with a pass-through Dock Connector will work fine if you attach the new Apple AV cables).

The 2005 Apple Universal Dock is the one with the larger round infrared port on the front. Note that this dock is also still available as part of Apple's older "AV Connection Kit" (a kit that included the dock, the remote control and the AV connection cables). This dock has an S-Video port on the back, and will also pass video output via the line-out port with a proper three-lead cable.

The 2007 Apple Universal Dock is the one with the small horizontal slit as a remote control port. This dock simply does not provide any video output capabilities by itself -- there is no S-Video port, and the line-out port is not wired for video.

kornchild2002 said:
If it is a bug then I wonder how long it is going to take them to fix it. It was done on purpose then I hope the movie companies don't get upset and make Apple change it back.
As I've mentioned in other threads, this doesn't have anything to do with the movie companies, so they're not going to care. In fact, the 2005 Universal Dock is not going to provide any video output capabilities that Apple's own cables don't already provide.

True me, if the movie companies were making Apple restrict video output on the iPod, it would be much more draconian than what we're seeing.... There would be no video-out accessories available from Apple. What we'd see instead is an HDMI/HDCP-based Dock Connector adapter, and accessories such as the Cinemizer and myVu glasses that are view-only devices.

The very fact that Apple themselves have released both composite and component output cables that can be connected to just about any recording device would indicate that this is not a movie studio issue. There is simply nothing that can be done with an older 5G or otherwise-unauthenticated Apple video accessory that cannot be done with Apple's own cables.
 
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Hi all-

OK, let me get this straight...

If I have the old Universal Dock with the round IR window hooked up to my TV and I buy a new 32GB touch:

- can I output video from the touch to the TV?
- if I rent iTunes movies, will they also play on the TV?

Thanks!

-Ian
 

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It looks like that is the case unless the 32GB iPod touch uses newer hardware (which I doubt). The 1.1.3 firmware allowed for this to happen and since the 32GB iPod touch comes with that firmware, I am guessing that it will work. You will be able to output videos (whether they are rented or not) to a TV using the older Apple universal dock.
 

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Cool, thanks!

And do you know if the remote will still work for pause/play/next and prev track?

Might have to pick me up one of these puppies...

:)

-Ian
 

kornchild2002

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I am not sure if the remote works. I had two IR remotes but I lost one and the other one was damaged by my dog (it was when he was a puppy last summer) so i can't test it. Someone else can comment though.
 
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