OS 3.1 and Smart Playlists

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xavierh

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I know that 3.1 is just off the press but if any of you have it already, could you please confirm if 3.1 fixes the live updating issue that 3.0 introduced with nested smart playlists?
 

xavierh

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Same here

This is relevant to my interests.
Thats wha ti need to know, but chances are that I will not wait until somebody confirms it works and just go ahead and update it and see what happens....
 

Code Monkey

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Well, I pulled the trigger on a 3G touch, curiosity has the better of me. If it doesn't work with chained smartlists, I'll be returning it to my local Apple store when it re-opens on the 18th (who the heck closes a store for renovations when new iPods are coming out???).

No smartlists = no sale from me (for obvious reasons :)).
 

xavierh

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Well, I pulled the trigger on a 3G touch, curiosity has the better of me. If it doesn't work with chained smartlists, I'll be returning it to my local Apple store when it re-opens on the 18th (who the heck closes a store for renovations when new iPods are coming out???).

No smartlists = no sale from me (for obvious reasons :)).
which one did you get? I have a 1st gen 32GB.....

I will not wait.....I will go home, download itunes 9.0 and see if lovely firmware 3.1 shows up once I connect my device...
 

Astro_Digital

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which one did you get? I have a 1st gen 32GB.....

I will not wait.....I will go home, download itunes 9.0 and see if lovely firmware 3.1 shows up once I connect my device...
Good luck with that me I will wait for the weekend, and see how many people complain and if there is an emergency 9.0.1 bug fix.
 

xavierh

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I just upgrade my main library to Itunes 9.0 so far so good....
 

rockmyplimsoul

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Official release notes:

Apple Computer said:
iPhone OS 3.1.1 Software Update for iPod touch
This update contains bug fixes and improvements, including the following:
• Genius recommendations for Applications
• iTunes 9 support
- Genius Mixes
- Organize your apps directly in iTunes
- Improved syncing options for music, movies, TV
shows, podcasts and photos
- iTunes U content organization
• Redeem iTunes Gift cards, codes and certificates in the
App Store
• Display available iTunes account credits in App Store
and iTunes Store
• Remotely lock iPod touch with a passcode via MobileMe
• Warn when visiting fraudulent websites in Safari (anti-
phishing)
• Improved Exchange calendar syncing and invitation
handling
• Fixes issue that caused some app icons to display
incorrectly
Installing now ... call me a Pioneer ;)
 

xavierh

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Official release notes:



Installing now ... call me a Pioneer ;)
rock, let me know if it works. I'm at work now and for some reaosn itunes does not let me download the firmware without having the ipod physically connected to the pc.....so I have to wait until I get home...
 

rockmyplimsoul

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OK, initial observations on 2nd generation 32GB Touch with 3.1.1 installed (auto-sync enabled):

1- Live Updating on the iPod is still broken :( This is a major let-down ... when will Apple get this right? Code Monkey, Live Updating on the 3G Touch may work with 3.1.1, so don't let this sway you, yet.

2- Playlist Name sorting (not song sorting) is still letters-first, then numbers. But leading symbols in the Playlist Name are now ignored. I was using ": " to push certain playlists to the bottom of the list of playlists, but now that doesn't work (guess I'll have to use "99 " as my playlist prefix for "root playlists" that I use to load the Touch contents).

All for now, have not tried in my car yet (Honda factory iPod integration lost communication with 3.0). Not sure about wi-fi since I don't have a signal here (but I didn't have a wi-fi problem with 3.0). Everything else seems "normal".
 

xavierh

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THAT SUCKS .......BIG TIME..... I had hope that this would fix the issue.....I will try it anyway. could this be an issue with itunes resotring something from the device's backup? I do not waht to loose hope yet.
 

rockmyplimsoul

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could this be an issue with itunes resotring something from the device's backup?
I kinda doubt it. With the 3.0 release I restored the Touch as a new iPod and Live Updating was still broken. Could be different with 3.1.1, but I don't hold much hope for that. I still wonder if Apple made some compromises in CPU loading and memory management in order for all the other 3.x bells and whistles to work. Live Updating might be viewed as "unnecessary" overhead that can be cut out in order to improve performance. I hope not since it is extremely important for many of us -- I hate having to re-sync just to get my playlists to update.
 

xavierh

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I did that last week, after trying unsuccessfully to downgrade to 2.x I restore it as a new ipod to get rid of a bunch anything that the failed downgrade process left there.

could they (apple) be thinking that this functionality (smart lists live update) will be replaced by the new DJ function?
 

Code Monkey

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2- Playlist Name sorting (not song sorting) is still letters-first, then numbers. But leading symbols in the Playlist Name are now ignored.
Now that just seems idiotic. It's like Apple wants to aggravate people who try to be organized.

1- Live Updating on the iPod is still broken This is a major let-down ... when will Apple get this right? Code Monkey, Live Updating on the 3G Touch may work with 3.1.1, so don't let this sway you, yet.
I'll be certain to report back. I'm not optimistic, they've blown up smartlists more times than I like to think about, and it's painfully obvious it's something they place as very, very low on their priority list (shiny chat bubbles and transition effects are obviously much more important ;)). On the other hand, I've made video such a habit on my nano that I figured a touch might be a logical upgrade. As sharp and clear as the screen is on the 4G nano, it's still a damn tiny screen.

I figure I've got 30 days to take it for a test drive in-depth and they've got 30 days to fix things if smartlist updating is broken on the 3G. If it's broken on the 3G and they don't fix it in the next two weeks (I won't hold my breath), it goes back. My Apple store will re-open the 18th and it's a short drive for me. I'll be out the $10 I paid for 2 day shipping but my credit card will be happier anyhow. Either way, it's a win-win for me. If live updating is borked, I save $300+tax (got the 32GB btw) and get rid of this year's case of upgraditis. If it does work, I get a shiny new toy.
 

rockmyplimsoul

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Code Monkey said:
Now that just seems idiotic. It's like Apple wants to aggravate people who try to be organized.
I imagine code developers having an evil laugh of it all right about now.

Code Monkey said:
I'll be certain to report back. I'm not optimistic, they've blown up smartlists more times than I like to think about, and it's painfully obvious it's something they place as very, very low on their priority list (shiny chat bubbles and transition effects are obviously much more important ;)).
Yeah I was hoping that they'd see the error of their ways and fix this, maybe with 3.1.2 (ha!) I guess the only up-side to this is that navigating between playlists is real snappy with 3.x, only because the CPU doesn't have to re-calculate the playlist contents each time.

Maybe the speedy new processor in the 3G will be better suited to handle 3.x and Live Updating. I'll be real curious to see your results.
 

Code Monkey

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could they (apple) be thinking that this functionality (smart lists live update) will be replaced by the new DJ function?
Nah, I just don't think anyone currently writing for Apple understands the code for smartlists very well. You can see by bugs that persist across generations that even though they give iTunes and the firmwares new whole version numbers that there's a ton of legacy code going back years in these things. They broke smart playlists with the clickwheel iPods back during the fourth generation and it took them more than a year to finally fix it for the fourth gen. Since they do start from legacy/library code, the fifth gen iPods came out with live updating working while the fourth gens were still hopelessly borked for several more months. Since the iPhone OS iPods started from a position of borked smartlist functionality in version 1.0, they don't even have this advantage of having a solid set of library code to draw from in the way the clickwheel iPods do. Unless someone at Apple gets hired who likes smartlists as much as we do, the probability is that every wholesale version change to the iPhone OS is liable to come with major smartlist bugs.

On the other hand, you are sort of on to the right track. Genius and the new Genius DJ mix seem very much an attempt to do what I do with smartlists, only completely transparent and automated for the masses. Features like this will receive the lion's share of programmer time while something very niche like power smartlists will remain on the back burner until the main show is up and running to their satisfaction. It's sad, but then you go and look at something like the Zune, which has the "best" smartlist functionality on a device next to iPods, and you realize we don't have it so bad ;)
 

rockmyplimsoul

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Since the iPhone OS iPods started from a position of borked smartlist functionality in version 1.0, they don't even have this advantage of having a solid set of library code to draw from in the way the clickwheel iPods do. Unless someone at Apple gets hired who likes smartlists as much as we do, the probability is that every wholesale version change to the iPhone OS is liable to come with major smartlist bugs.
Actually, Live Updating on the Touch was not broken until 3.0. I've had a 1st and 2nd gen Touch and installed every 1.x and 2.x release and never had a problem with LU until 3.0. So they do have a good base to return to, but either they're more attracted to the shiny, pretty things, or the overhead of running 3.x is too much to keep LU working properly.
 

Code Monkey

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Actually, Live Updating on the Touch was not broken until 3.0. I've had a 1st and 2nd gen Touch and installed every 1.x and 2.x release and never had a problem with LU until 3.0.
I was pretty sure they were completely busted on the 1.0 software, certainly lots of people complaining they were. I never heard complaints with the 2G software, but I figured that was an accident of luck.

or the overhead of running 3.x is too much to keep LU working properly.
That I just can't believe, if a 2G nano could handle managing 8GB of files with pretty snappy performance, surely these devices can manage the task. Also, and this is speculation, but if it were an intentional change to smartlists on iPhone OS devices, they'd probably have documented it. The fact that they don't even acknowledge there's a problem is what tells me it's a bug (they never fessed up to the 4G problems either until a new firmware mentioned fixing bugs with smartlists).
 

Code Monkey

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Just so I'm clear: Is it any time a smartlist mentions another smartlist that it breaks, or is it referencing a static playlist as well? If it's the former, there are kludges I can live with, if the second, I'm going to be disturbed.
 

rockmyplimsoul

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Code Monkey said:
I was pretty sure they were completely busted on the 1.0 software ...
I certainly don't recall any problems and I've been an avid user of your playlist management scheme for quite some time. I'm sure I would've picked up on this if LU was broken. Could be that I started at something between 1.0 and 2.0 ... I'm quite certain I had no LU problems prior to the 2.0 release.

Code Monkey said:
... if a 2G nano could handle managing 8GB of files with pretty snappy performance, surely these devices can manage the task.
You might be right, but remember that a Touch has a lot more going on in the background than a Nano (wi-fi, push notifications, etc.)

Code Monkey said:
The fact that they don't even acknowledge there's a problem is what tells me it's a bug (they never fessed up to the 4G problems either until a new firmware mentioned fixing bugs with smartlists).
Well, if LU is now a performance issue that was sacrificed to make 3.x run smoother, I'm not so sure Apple would be so forthright to tell us that. Hopefully it is just a bug and not a performance compromise.
 
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