Ripping Audio with Nero 8

[Signal to Noise]

Anyone ripping audio tracks using Nero 8?

I normally use EAC with Lame and get stellar results. I bought a new laptop with Vista which also came with Roxio which is crap and limited anyway. I got Nero 8 on sale and figured I'd give it a go to see if DVD to iPod video and creating MP3 audio tracks will go quicker.

As far as the MP3/AAC ripping is concerned I'm not sure if the results are that great. Ripping speed was good, tho'. I notice there is no option for using VBR or extremely high bitrates. I used a single song and tried three rips to see was better:

NIN Ghosts I-IV Track 1:

1. EAC = 178 kbps (VBR) 3.6MB ~ Good audio result as usual
2. Nero = 192kbps (CBR?) 3.9MB ~ Good audio
3. Nero = 127kbps (AAC) 2.6MB ~ Audio was more subdued in comparison

It looks like I'll be sticking with the tried & true (and ancient) EAC/LAME method. Has anyone had better results using Nero?

[kornchild2002]

Are you using Nero's AAC encoder with EAC or are you using Nero's CD ripping application? Nero's CD ripping application is very different from using 3rd party applications like EAC. With Nero's app, you slide a little button across a bar. This will give you an overall average bitrate but the encoding will be done with VBR implementations.

Nero's AAC encoder is very similar to Lame mp3 when you use it with 3rd party apps. Nero has setup a system of -q values. Each -q value is very similar to Lame's -V values. In fact, Nero could even have a -q value of -q0.4235. The Lame devs put out Lame 3.98b8 today and now Lame has this feature. This means that you can encode using -V 2.567 if you wanted to. Anyway, recent listening tests were conducted using the January 2007 build (not the August 2007 build) of Nero's AAC encoder. The files were encoded at around 128kbps VBR and they scored higher than the Lame -V 2.

Go looking around at hydrogenaudio for more information. Also, whenever you conducted your listening test, was it an actual blind ABX test or did you just switch around tracks or put them in a playlist?

On a side note, Nero AAC has the ability to encode files with a bitrate up to 400kbps CBR and 450kbps VBR. The files are still compatible with iPods.

[dirtpeach]

Nero is not a secure ripper. If you're already using EAC with LAME and getting stellar results, why switch?

[kornchild2002]

Originally Posted by dirtpeach

Nero is not a secure ripper. If you're already using EAC with LAME and getting stellar results, why switch?

Well, EAC with Nero AAC is just as secure and can provide higher quality results at lower bitrates. As I said, a recent test showed that Nero AAC at 128kbps VBR actually outperformed Lame mp3 at the -V 2 setting. The Lame mp3 files ended up with a bitrate of around 160kbps. So theoretically once could achieve transparency with Nero's AAC encoder in the 128-160kbps bitrate range. That would be like encoding with Lame at the 160kbps-190kbps (the later being what -V 2 is). You don't have to use Nero's bad CD ripper to rip audio CDs using Nero's AAC encoder.

[Signal to Noise]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions, kornchild. I guess I'll have to do some digging around within the Nero application. I have Nero 6 installed on my old XP machine and it is way different than ver. 8.

I didn't try using Nero AAC with EAC. I just used what I thought is Nero's dedicated ripping app. I don't recall seeing a slider in the ripping app. It was a very basic GUI and I think it was called Smart Start or something like that. I'll have to check when I get home tonight. As for the listening test I just threw all three songs into a play list and kept scrubbing between them.

Dirtpeach: The main reasoning for trying something other than EAC/LAME was to get a bit more into current technology to see if audio results would improve. EAC & LAME are fairly old by today's standards.

[kornchild2002]

What you should have done is click on Rip and Burn in Nero Start Smart. Then you would have seen Nero's real CD ripping application with the VBR slider. I think you clicked on the icon located to the far left and that just opens up some type of half assed CD ripping in Start Smart itself. I do agree that Nero 8 is very different but I think Nero's true CD ripping application has been like this since about 2006, they just decided to integrate a watered down version right into Smart Start.

Nero is coming out with a new AAC encoder in about 1/2 a month to a month's time now and it is supposed to add all sorts of improvements such as fine tuning the VBR algorithm, adding true Xbox 360 and Creative Zen compatibility, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Either way, many people think that the Nero AAC encoder is more advanced than the iTunes AAC encoder and that it has been m ore advanced for a couple years now. It wasn't until about late 2006 that Nero's AAC encoder really pulled ahead of Lame (instead of being slightly ahead like iTunes AAC) in terms of audio quality.

As for the playlist, bah, you should know better.

[Signal to Noise]

Originally Posted by kornchild2002

What you should have done is click on Rip and Burn in Nero Start Smart. Then you would have seen Nero's real CD ripping application with the VBR slider. I think you clicked on the icon located to the far left and that just opens up some type of half assed CD ripping in Start Smart itself. ...

Bingo! That's exactly what I was missing. As per usual, KC, thanks for your help and advice.

I'm burning a couple of reference discs now to see what the sound is like with Nero's version of Lame VBR.

I'll also keep an eye out for that AAC update.

[kornchild2002]

Originally Posted by Signal to Noise

Bingo! That's exactly what I was missing. As per usual, KC, thanks for your help and advice.

I'm burning a couple of reference discs now to see what the sound is like with Nero's version of Lame VBR.

I'll also keep an eye out for that AAC update.

I don't know what Nero was thinking when they made two different versions of their ripping software. One built right into Nero StartSmart and the other being its own stand-alone program (this one offers more features). I guess they were trying to make things easy but their idea of "high quality" isn't really high quality as it doesn't allow their encoder to perform as it was programed for. Either way, I will let you know when the new Nero AAC encoder comes out. It is supposed to be pretty good. The January 2007 build was already pretty good but the August 2007 build actually improved audio quality for non-classical music (it increased the overall average bitrate by about 15kbps as well). This new encoder update is supposed to improve performance for both classical and non-classical music as well as increase the quality at every bitrate.

[Signal to Noise]

So I spent several hours last night fooling around with the mp3 settings to see what kind of files I would get. By the time I went to load the finished mp3's into iTunes, iTunes wouldn't accept them! Grrrr!

So methinks I'll be sticking to EAC/LAME until I figure this @#$%^&! Nero out.

[kornchild2002]

Use Nero's AAC encoder, don't bother using their ripper or their version of the Lame mp3 encoder. Their Lame mp3 encoder isn't the official version and their AAC encoder retains more quality.

[Signal to Noise]

Yeah, I was thinking of trying AAC out again. With my very first foray into the world of iTunes and iPods I used AAC until I discovered it's not compatible with CD burning to play in car or home stereos. So I switched to mp3. But with the advent of satellite radio I rarely listen to physical CDs anymore except to rip to the iPod. So AAC may be feasible now for me.

Any recommended settings for AAC, KC?

[Signal to Noise]

Hey KC, I did some experimenting and this time I used EAC with the Nero AAC encoder. It was bit tricky to set up until I discovered some older posts of your over @ HA. Very informative and helpful. I decided to leave the bitrate at -q 0.5 and I'll see how that goes. My iTunes library still has about 30% of the music in AAC (iTunes encoded) so it won't be a big deal to start reconverting again.

I'm still looking for encoding and tagging tips if you've got any. I'll also do some more digging around @ HA.

Cheers!

[kornchild2002]

I think my posts on Hydrogenaudio are a little old, they were before Nero released their AAC encoder for free to the public. The default encoding setting that Nero suggests is -q0.5 which should produce files at around 170kbps VBR. That is supposed to produce transparent quality for 99.99% of samples, it is similar to Lame's -V 2 but the Nero files should be about 1-2MB smaller than Lame -V 2 ones.

You shouldn't have any issues with tags as long as you use the *.m4a filename with EAC. Nero adopted tagging standards that are very similar to Apple's back in 2005. They wanted their encoder to be used by many people and iPods are the most popular.

I would go with either -q0.45 or -q0.5 for Nero AAC encoding. The higher settings produce file sizes that are similar (or greater than) Lame mp3 at -V 2. In my opinion, the point of using AAC is so you can encode songs to a lower bitrate while still retaining transparency. Nero AAC will produce file sizes similar to Lame -V 2 at -q0.55. That defeats the purpose for me. So stick with -q0.45 or -q0.5. You might also want to try going down to -q0.35 which should produces file at about 130kbps.

[Signal to Noise]

Thanks for the tips, KC.

Weird, much to my dismay (again) for some reason iTunes will not recognize the .m4a files created with Nero. I think I'm missing something or have an erroneous setting. Will have to investigate....