iPod sound quality

[MarcHeijligers]

As has become clear from my investigation (e.g. see http://members.brabant.chello.nl/~m.heijligers/ipod/), and as has been confirmed by some hifi/computer magazines as well, the iPod 3gen has inferiour sound quality compared to most other MP3 players and other portables. The iPod (3rd Gen) has a bit canned/harsh sound, whereas other devices sound more open, solid, airy and relaxed (some sources say the 2nd gen sounds better).

I think Apple can solve this problem to a large extend by an update in the firmware (at least fix the 6dB fall-off in bass for regular 30 Ohm headphones).

Apple is known for not dealing with a problem, unless they receive numerous requests about a specific issue. So, if the iPod sound quality is one of your concerns as well, or is something you'd like to see improved, I suggest to give Apple a message on their feedback pages:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html

Marc

[i_wolf]

Excellent read. Really interesting , and I learnt a lot. Thanks.
One thing i was interested in, when you were talking about the
tereoplay Magazine. The downloadable list of Stereoplay (pdf) shows a comparison overview, mentioning a sound rating of Creative Jukebox 3 (35 points), Hango PJB 100 (35 points), Creative DAP Jukebox (34 points), Apple iPod 2G (32 points), Archos Jukebox (30 points), and other non-HD based MP3 players. Their October 2003 issue compares the iPod 3rd gen (33 points) with the iRiver IHP 100 (37 points) and the Innoplus Phototainer (30 points). The graphs show a clear fall-off in bass for the iPod (left figure), whereas the iRiver has a straight response (right figure).
and then
'T Magazin. The 19th issue 2003 of C'T Magazin shows a comparison between many MP3-players, among which the Archos Jukebox Multimedia 120, Archos Jukebox Video AV 320, Creative Zen Nomad Jukebox Zen NX, Deltron Cinema Disk, Innoplus Phototainer PT-300P, iRiver iHP-100, Mambo-x Media-X, MPIO HD 100 and the Philips HDD 100. For each device they show measurements of line and headphone outputs. The iRiver shows the most flat response out of its headphone output. They also show measurements of the headphones delivered with all the devices, and basically you can see that both the iPod as well as the iRiver provide the best headphones. Regarding my own observations, this only shows the very poor quality of headphones delivered with other devices. Measurements show distortion of 0,42% for the iPod, which is only surpassed by the Philips (0,59%), but all the others are way lower (0,04% for the iRiver). The maximum output voltage of the iPod is 0,29V (EU restricted), whereas the iRiver is for instance 0,6V. Battery time of the iPod (30GB version) is reported to be 8h, the Zen 10,5h, the iRiver 13,5h, and the Philips 15h (twice as long!!!). It seems that Apple gets though competition, and has a job to do.

both are quite reputable im told sources.
In terms of which audio player will drive the cleanest, clear sound to a good set of unamped headphones (say grado SR125's ..maybe pushing it a bit)... which player in your opinion will most likely produce the clearest, cleanest and best sound theoretically from all of the tests that you have done.
Reason i ask is that the creative has the theretical best output (50 + 50 mW) and SNR of 98. But neither of the sources that you mentioned put the creative at the top in terms of signal quality from the headphone out... which i would have expected??????
Any ideas???

[MarcHeijligers]

The measurements as presented in the magazines don't tell much about sound quality. SNR can be measured in many ways, and most of the time is measured using a 1kHz static signal, just like power. It doesn't tell much about the dynamic response, e.g. how fast a device reacts and recovers from an instant request of current from its power supply.

This means that measurements are only indicative. The somewhat tiny sound of the iPod can be caused by lack of bass, which can be solved by a dedicated equalizer setting easily. The harsh component of the sound probably is more due to intermodulation distortion. It's questionable whether anything can be done about that one, but that depends on the cause. If it is a bad power supply, bad circuitry or bad components (e.g. lousy capacitors), not so much can be done about it.

At least Apple should take the problem serious (I don't think they do, because the magazines reviews are not critical enough, mostly based on the headphones provided with the device influencing the tests, and sometimes performed by people not knowing too much about sound quality, relying an article on their initial first impressions).

From what I've seen, the iRiver iHP-100 seems to be the best sounding device.

Marc

[adamsweeting]

Guys.......

I can't say anything about the G3 iPod's, as I own a G2 - but I have found that my G2 iPod has a very good sound output.

I am no music noob either - I take my high end hi-fi quite seriously. I have a ?4K hi-fi set up at home, so I am sure you can appreciate I would say something if I thought the iPod sounded naff !! lol.

Like I said - I have nothing to compare my iPod against - Does the G3 really sound bad ?

I would have to say that the iPod could do with generating more bass - but I have found that with the correct headphones (sennheiser PX200) - the bass is good enough to listen to on the move.

What is it about the sound of the G3 pod's that doesn't sound too good ?

The reason I asked is because I was thinking of getting rid of my G2 iPod to get a bigger G3, which I won't do if I am going to have to sacrifice sound quality.

[Depthstyles]

Yeah I've noticed the same thing w/ my G3 10gb iPOD. The sound, whether through the headphones or hooked up through a line to a stereo always comes out "hot", with quite some distortion. The only way around this for me has been to change the EQ setting to "bass reducer" which shouldn't be the case.

[Phil]

Originally posted by adamsweeting

Like I said - I have nothing to compare my iPod against - Does the G3 really sound bad ?

It's not that it sounds bad, but it doesn't sound as good as it should or as good as other mp3 players, especially for its price. The new Rio Karma uses the same DAC as the iPod and it may sound better, which if true means something is and has always been slightly wrong with the iPod.

[MarcHeijligers]

The comparison between a G2 and G3 iPod has been performed by Jochen Richter, saying:

I have just bought a 30GB iPod yesterday and found spontanously that the sound of my old 20GB iPod is more "audiophile". I use the B&O A8 headphone which I consider quite good. After listening to many pieces now I find the sound of the old one far superior. It's more "deep" and more "airy". Especially the piano has a "body". Saxophones sound better not just like "quark". I cannot find that there is more detail with the new one. I find a whole dimension is missing. And although both have the European firmware, the old one is much (!) louder. So I am a bit dissappointed about the new one. The weight and handling is nice, but the sound is the most important thing...


My comparison of the iPod 3G to a lot of other devices confirm the same kind of differences.

I've never heard distortion, like too much bass or so.

Marc

[i_wolf]

your findings give weight to some of my observations also.
The gen 2 sounds "better" to me than gen 3.
On the subject of the iriver, before this thread was mentioned in another thread here i did a sort of a mini review of it, and i observed while on paper it didn't seam like its DAC was as good from the headphone out on the ipod or zen, it sounded better and more "powerful".
However i think isn't iriver (besides creative) the only company that is using an alternative DAC and audio processor. Everyone seams to be using the ipod wolf DAC and portal player sound processor. Creative is using a 2 year old but still quite impressive DAC and processor from its JB3, and iriver is using the latest Motorola Amadeus audio processor and unknown (to me anyway) DAC ...

[MacMaiden]

I just ordered a new 40GB iPod - have I done the wrong thing ??????
I am hunting down a good pair of earbuds - should I bother ??????

[i_wolf]

I don't think you have done the wrong thing. Maybe you should listen to the different players mentioned here and see what you think. If you are buying purely for sound quality maybe you havn't spent your money on the best of the best but the sound should be grand with a decent set of phones. Do not buy the european one though, as that has a volume cap.

[SpideyPod]

Not sure purchasing an IPod can ever be considered to be doing the "wrong thing".

Not to knock audiophiles at all, to each his own, but you can go on about DAP's, SNR's, Decibel drop offs, headphone output and distortion until you are blue in the face but if you as an individual listen to and hold an IPod and you are taken by its simple elegance and functionality then I think you can say with confidence that you did the right thing.

BUT...if you are the type to actually investigate the decibel output of Sennheiser HD2HSP's versus Sony MDR-NC5's while standing under a London bridge on a foggy night.......well then maybe you want to take the time to listen to each of top currently available HDD based MP3 players.

But a 40 gig IPod the "wrong choice"? Never!!!

To each his own but good luck!!

[i_wolf]

well in fairness its a lot of money and people want to get the best for their money. regardless. And some people value sound over aesthetics and others value battery life over capacity etc... As you rightly put it each to their own.
Personally if i am going to spend 500 euro on a device, i would expect to be able to hear it (dig at gen 3 euro capping), i would expect that it can produce the natural bass of the track without need for bass boosters. If the need arose for a bass booster, i would expect the equaliser not to distort the rest of the sound.

[capnttom]

I have a 20GB Zen and a 3G 15GB iPod. My eargear is: Grado SR325s & Ety ER4Ps. I prefer the Grados and mostly use the Etys for traveling, which is a lot.

At any rate, I've been reading all of this technical specification stuff and it certainly provides an analytical reference, but in the end I depend on my ears.

I've got to tell you guys that I can not honestly hear any significant difference between the two machines. Who knows, I'm a bit older and my wife says my hearing is not as good as it used to be. But my point is that both units sound pretty darn good to me.

On occasion I hear some distortion on some pieces, but I've found that often times the source material is the culprit. This is the case on both the Zen and iPod.

BTW, all of my source material is encoded to the same standard: EAC & LAME (APX).

Oh yeah, I also have a Xin Super Mini, which I'll pull out sometimes if I really want a bit more quality. But even that doesn't make that much of a difference. It's very subtle. Yet, on occasion, I like to be real anal.

So...I wonder if were not really splitting hairs sometimes. I think there are several good products on the market. To a large extent, I think it boils down to personal preference. In my case, I bought the iPod because I travel alot and size matters. Also, the Zen display is hard for me to read at times. The iPod has an edge here.

[MacMaiden]

i_wolf - how do I NOT get a european version ?
I have already ordered off the Apple France website and am awaiting delivery any day. I am assuming if I ordered in europe then It is going to be a european pod. The tracking list says it came from Taipei.
How will I know if I get a european version ?

[adamsweeting]

Some v. interesting replies.... good work.

I think I'll stick with my G2 for a while - sound quality is the most important thing to me.

Altough I may go into a shop and have a listen to a G3 machine - and make my own decision.

Thanks.