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Topic: Photo Storage on the iPod -- The Gory Details

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Old 04-06-2005, 02:07 AM
#16
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by siisgood00
Are you sure that the album art is embedded in mp3 files? I thought they were only embedded in aac's.

I get them when I download an audio book in MP3 format from Audible.com. Since that's where Apple gets theirs (although converted to AAC filesl) through some licensing agreement I assume that's why an audiobook from Apple also comes with the art. I have no idea who else may be selling MP3s with the art included because I've only bought the MP3s from Audible. Actual file ending, with file endings turned off in Finder preferences, is filename.aa. It's their number 4 or "best quality" file format and they describe it as an MP3.

(Also like Apple's AAC files they must have a similar anti-piracy protection because they do "call home" if I move them to a PowerBook different than the Mac used to download them. I've detected this through a firewall add on I have called "Little Snitch" and just like Apple's' scheme once a computer is "registered" it never asks again for username or password. I have no idea what their license is vis a vis Apple's and don't really care. I bought it, paid for it, and never really use the file on more than one PowerBook, although I do move them back and forth at times as I usually put them on a storage FireWire drive after listening to them but (rarely) copy them back to another Mac for a second listening at a future time. And which one downloaded or used it the first time I have no intention of trying to keep track.)

Curiously Apple almost always has the file tags of an "Audiobooks" file correct whereas the ones from Audible.com sometimes use "Audiobook" or "audiobook" or nothing at all under genre which I can only guess makes some iPod users a little confused when they can't find a new "audiobooks" under the correct genre. But I don't know this. I simply have a playlist named "Audiobooks" (after adding or correcting the name) so that I can quickly and easily find them. Overkilll for the time being. It may be helpful on down the line.

And because of the album art, contrary to the PDF that came with with my iPod Photo, I have to hit the Select button twice from the "now playing" screen to get to the "scrubber bar." However on my iPod I really can't scroll through a "song" but can only use the click wheel to move from one predetermined mark to another, not handy if you fall asleep listening to an "Audiobooks" and don't leave a bookmark. Finding the original starting point can be done through iTunes, I vaguely recall, then synced to the iPod (not sure of this). It's no big deal to me as I listen to half the "Audiobooks" on the iPod and half on a PowerBook G4 anyway. (This has happened once of twice, i.e., falling asleep, and I've found that a good, boring "Audiobooks" is a good way to fall asleep if you have insomnia, little different from reading a good, boring book. )

(Since sound quality with an "Audiobooks" is not exactly the issue it is with music I prefer to buy the "book" from Apple if they have it. Curiously, they're sometimes a dollar or so less at Apple, for a reason I won't begin to guess at, and occupy less space since I get an AAC file from Apple, not an ".aa" MP3 from Audible. I've read some where that the head of Audible is extremely high on Apple because the iTunes Music Store greatly expanded his market. The Audible.com web site is also a mess to navigate, although nothing like it used to be. Audible also has a much larger selection of "Audiobooks" as far as I can tell. They also use an "Amazon.com" means of profiling you based on previous purchases, although it's nowhere as nearly well developed and is humorous in its own special way and different from the laughs I get at Amazon after logging on after Christmas when I've bought books or CDs or something there as gifts.)



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Old 04-06-2005, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Note that the album artwork also technically lives in one other place on your iPod -- within the MP3/AAC files themselves. The iPod doesn't use these images or care about them in any way, so they're technically wasted space. In fact, iTunes doesn't touch these images, so they're left in whatever size you saved them into the file in. In other words, if you're using high-resolution album artwork, you're losing even more space on your iPod.
Is there a way to avoid embedding Artwork in the MP3 Files?

From the experimenting I did in iTunes so far, it looks like it would put them in the ID3 Tags AND that image database.

I have most of my album art scanned at 150 DPI (Approx. 700x700) as folder.jpg files in each album directory on the copy of my music that I play on my computer (Ogg files) and configured the program I use to play them on the computer (Quintessential Player) to display it using that.

Now, I figured I'd just grab the "For iPod" copy of my music from iTunes, select all tracks from an album, Get Info, click the Artwork box, navigate to the corresponding folder.jpg file and improt it. Now, will that add the picture inside each tracks or will it put it in a separate location in iTunes so that only ONE copy gets sent to the iPod (Or 2 if it uses 2 different sizes)?

Or if having an extra copy inside each MP3s is necessary, can I resize it manually with Photoshop to 140x140 and then iTunes won't have to resize it.

One of the main reasons I'm going for an iPod Phot instead of a regular iPod is because of artwork...



Portable Music History:
Mar'98 - Oct'03: Panasonic Shockwave CD Player
Oct'03 - Apr'05: Frontier Labs NexIA
Apr'05 - Feb'07: iPod Photo 30GB.
Feb'07 - Present: iPod 5.5G 80GB.
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:06 AM
#18
 
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I personally have no interest in the artwork so have never paid that much attention to it. All I know is that it shows up in iTunes when I buy it and doesn't when I rip it. Have never looked to see where it might be stored (Mac).

The iPod Photo does use it for whatever reason. Most people seem to like it or be neutral about it like me. Seems to me you only need one graphic per album as it eventually "migrates" to all, but don't think it's immediately qpparent.....quit and relaunch iTunes first? Can't recall. Think I read this somewhere FWIW. Windows and Mac could conceivably store a bit differently.



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Old 04-07-2005, 03:48 PM
#19
 
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My camera takes approx. 300KB pictures. How much space do you think each picture will take up on the iPod (all 4 re-sizes included, of course). Im trying to get a rough idea on how much space all 950 megs of photos will take up if I choose NOT to include full resolution copies.

Thanks!

Last edited by siisgood00; 04-07-2005 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 04-07-2005, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrZebra77
Is there a way to avoid embedding Artwork in the MP3 Files?

From the experimenting I did in iTunes so far, it looks like it would put them in the ID3 Tags AND that image database.
Unfortunately, not at this time.

The image database only exists on the iPod photo itself. In iTunes, the artwork is only stored within the MP3/AAC file. It transfers it to the image database when you sync the song to your iPod (assuming that you have the "Display Album Artwork" option turned on).

So this does mean that you're technically wasting some space on the iPod by storing the album artwork, and of course with 700x700 images, that's probably a larger amount than strictly necessary, since the iPod photo itself only displays them at 140x140 and 50x50, but unfortunately the full image size is what gets stored in the MP3/AAC file.

You could resize the folder.jpg files before importing them into iTunes, but you'll have to decide whether that's worth the trouble or not... To do the math, consider the size of each existing folder.jpg file multiplied by each MP3 file in that respective folder (since the artwork has to be stored in each MP3 file individually).



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Old 04-07-2005, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by siisgood00
My camera takes approx. 300KB pictures. How much space do you think each picture will take up on the iPod (all 4 re-sizes included, of course). Im trying to get a rough idea on how much space all 950 megs of photos will take up if I choose NOT to include full resolution copies.
If you're not storing full-resolution copies, then each picture, regardless of original resolution, will take up approximately 776kb on the iPod (I think I either mentioned this above, or in my iPod 101 article - see my sig).

Basically, the pictures are stored as 16-bit bitmaps, in four resolutions, so the amount of storage required for each photo is mathematically consistent.

So basically, take the number of individual photo files that you have, and multiply that by 776kb and you should have a reasonable approximately (and add a few more kb for database record overhead).



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Old 04-08-2005, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jhollington
Unfortunately, not at this time.

The image database only exists on the iPod photo itself. In iTunes, the artwork is only stored within the MP3/AAC file. It transfers it to the image database when you sync the song to your iPod (assuming that you have the "Display Album Artwork" option turned on).

So this does mean that you're technically wasting some space on the iPod by storing the album artwork, and of course with 700x700 images, that's probably a larger amount than strictly necessary, since the iPod photo itself only displays them at 140x140 and 50x50, but unfortunately the full image size is what gets stored in the MP3/AAC file.

You could resize the folder.jpg files before importing them into iTunes, but you'll have to decide whether that's worth the trouble or not... To do the math, consider the size of each existing folder.jpg file multiplied by each MP3 file in that respective folder (since the artwork has to be stored in each MP3 file individually).
Ok, I know about the image DB in the iPod.. Did some calculations:

Resizing covers with Photoshop to 140x140 and saving them optimized for size (Save for Web option) gives a file around 6-8k. Multiply that by an average of 12 songs per album, you get something below 100k so that's reasonable.

Now, the iPod will have in addition to that, 2 "BMPs" of 140x140 and 56x56 so 39200 Bytes + 6272 Bytes so around 45k.

Now does it create an entry in that DB for each song or does it reuse the same copy for all MP3s.

If it reuses them, with an average of 12 tracks, that would mean about 150k per album of overhead. At 50 Megs per album average, that's 0.3% overhead. So if you fill up 30 GB, you endup with 90 Megs of covers.

If it doesn't reuse it, then you have to count 45k + 6-8k per track, so for a 12 Track album, it will take up about 650k per album, so using the same 50 Megs per album average that gets to 1.3% overhead or 390 Megs of cover.

Considering the size of my collection and how much space there will be to spare on the HDD, I'll be ok with that.



Portable Music History:
Mar'98 - Oct'03: Panasonic Shockwave CD Player
Oct'03 - Apr'05: Frontier Labs NexIA
Apr'05 - Feb'07: iPod Photo 30GB.
Feb'07 - Present: iPod 5.5G 80GB.
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Old 04-08-2005, 09:14 AM
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No, each track gets its own entry in the image DB, so you're actually looking at 45kb per track, plus the overhead of the image within your MP3/AAC file.

Your math is essentially correct, and I tend to agree that as a percentage of the overall music library, the additional space requirement is really quite minimal.



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Old 06-12-2005, 06:38 PM
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Hello!
Just got my iPod photo 30gb yesterday.
I was really upset by having a 800mb photo album transform into 3gb, for a feature i'm not planning on using anyways (the TV output).
I tried deleting the F1019 files, and indeed it worked! No glitches or gray screens when browsing the photo library. Haven't tried synching after that, so I don't know if it will stay small or not.

Obviously this is not a solution to the problem, but it's better than nothing.

Why can't apple allow me to choose if I want TV support or not? I don't want even the bloated size on the hard drive and especially not on the iPod itself.
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Old 06-17-2005, 04:56 PM
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canon 20D and apple cameraconnector

You are the big expert. I read your threads with interest. I have a problem. I cannot store photo's from my 20 d in the ipod photo 30 gb. The applecamera connector does not work with me if I import I see only a blank page. PTP or normal transfer gives no difference . Do you know a solution ?
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Old 07-09-2005, 10:39 PM
#26
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by xtermus-san
Hello!
Just got my iPod photo 30gb yesterday.
I was really upset by having a 800mb photo album transform into 3gb, for a feature i'm not planning on using anyways (the TV output).
I tried deleting the F1019 files, and indeed it worked! No glitches or gray screens when browsing the photo library. Haven't tried synching after that, so I don't know if it will stay small or not.

Obviously this is not a solution to the problem, but it's better than nothing.

Why can't apple allow me to choose if I want TV support or not? I don't want even the bloated size on the hard drive and especially not on the iPod itself.
Any update on this? It is safe to delete this folder if you dont use the iPod to display images on the TV? Will iTunes simply re-create this folder each time you sync?
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:58 AM
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Incidently, I decipherd the file format for the largest .ithmb files. I discuss it in a thread in the hacks&mods section titles "Hacking .ithmb file format". My intention was to write a Mac application similar to XPlay's Photo Browser program. I have had no success deciphering the file formats for the other .ithmb files yet though, which store smaller versions of the images. I have the 720x480 images deciphered so far.

I am curious if there is any demand at all for this, since it only gives you access to relatively small images and you can store full res images on the ipod anyway. Does anyone like or other use XPlay's program, or do any Mac user's wish theh could do it?



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Old 08-11-2005, 12:06 PM
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Keith,

As someone who recently lost the photo library on my computer, I'd be very interested in this, even if it is in the larger formats. 5 years of pictures exist on my iPod right now and I need to find a way to salvage them to my computer or my wife is going to kill me.
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Old 08-14-2005, 01:09 AM
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Photo iPods Are Amazing... i dont care what people think, its the latest and greatest from apple right now... just cant wait for the 5G
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Old 09-22-2005, 10:23 PM
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yes. i agree. i havn't gotten a chance to put pics on my ipod yet, but i mite not because i don't want all the diferent sized images taking up harddrive space





20gb ipod photo, 1549+ songs, 4.5 days, 7.69gb used, 156 photos
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Topic: Photo Storage on the iPod -- The Gory Details

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