New thread about audiobook freeze. Different conditions.

[kickshots]

I have a 4g 20gb Ipod, and I use Itunes with OS X Tiger.
I have been listening to audiobooks I made from CDs and converted to bookmarkable ACC files using the "make bookmarkable" script for several months now without a problem...until Itunes 4.9 and the latest firmware update.
I have read every thread I can find about this issue and it seems as if my situation may give some insight.
The current book I am listening to is ACC , Stereo, 44khz, low complexity and bookmarkable. The file is split into 20-22mb chunks.
My Ipod always needs to be reset everytime I listen to this book.
Based on previous threads, here is what I know:
-My files are Stereo ACC files, which should prevent the issue.
-They are less than 32mb, which should prevent the issue.
-I have exited out to a song and played it before pausing and having the Ipod go to sleep, which should prevent the issue which it does on occasion, but then other times, it still happens.

Ok, so I have done all of the things brought up as work arounds or fixes elsewhere in the Apple forums and here, with little to no avail. Please help.
Has anyone got an official or otherwise word from Apple about this?

Thanks,
Robert

[moriond]

You mention that these freezing problems began when you upgraded to iTunes 4.9, but this version appeared only a couple of days after the 2005-06-26 iPod updater was released for 4G and mini iPods. Did you also apply this update? This is only a guess, but it seems likely that this, rather than iTunes 4.9, is the source of the problems, especially if you notice freezeups on homemade bookmarkable files that were made earlier and previously played without problems.

The firmware update for clickwheel iPods (4G+mini) in this version of the iPod updater was the only thing that actually changed bookmarking behavior on your iPod. If that is what is responsible for your freezeups, you should be able to use the information in the links in this post to roll back to an earlier version of the firmware. (I think that on a Mac this simply requires double-clicking the version you want -- for example, iPod Updater 2005-03-23 under the iPod Software Updater folder under the Utilities folder of your Applications directory, but read the links to the Apple Discussions and the iPodlounge forums discussions to be sure.)

See if this works to solve the freezeup problem. If it does, you can try reapplying the 2005-06-26 iPod updater (maybe download a new version in case it was corrupted) and see how that works.

If your iPod firmware upgrade is responsible for the freezing problems, then the problem (and its solution) doesn't depend on whether you're using a Mac or Windows platform for iTunes 4.9. And the only difference in how you roll back to an earlier version of the firmware is that you shouldn't have to trick the updater by editing the date or version in the control file to "update" to an earlier version if you have a Mac with the earlier Software Updater files in your Application directory (unless your Tiger was a clean install?)

Hope this helps. You could try asking at an Apple Store or their tech support whether this could be the source of your problems and whether there is a better solution. Good luck.

[robert]

could it be the particular book, a corrupted conversion? Do books previously played without problems now play without problems. Perhaps a soft reset and converting the offending book again before going thru Moriond's excellent suggestions.

I read it that the offending book is homemade and small, but be sure to limit to 5 hours duration and convert in stereo.

Have you added Podcasts to your iPod now that the new version provides for them? There are reports that even merely the presence of mono podcasts on an iPod causes audio book problems of the sort you describe. See Apple Discussion Group Thread here:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?13@@.68a99bdf/81

[kickshots]

I did update the firmware around the same time as Itunes. I looked on my computer and I only have the latest update. Also, the files are stereo and about 1 hour each.
Also, to update my situation, I just got finished listening to some music, mp3s, and after I paused and the Pod shut down, it would not come back. I had to reset. This is the first time it happened with an mp3 that I know of.

RM

[robert]

do you have podcasts on your iPod? mono podcasts on your iPod? Could be the problem from what I am reading, though this problem seems widespread. Fortunately for me, I am not experiencing it.

[kickshots]

I have podcasts and Audible books, neither of which seem to give me trouble. Other than the fact that my ACC files are stereo, and less than 5 hours long, I am having the same issues as everyone else.

RM

[robert]

The thread I linked above has posts that think that the problem is the mere presence of podcasts.
http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?13@@.68a99bdf/81
Apple needs to fix this.

[moriond]

After reading the links Robert posted to the Apple Discussion pages and checking elsewhere on that site and on Mac FixIt, I'd be inclined to check that none of the podcasts on your iPod are mono. There are enough examples to suggest that the combination of adding bookmarking to mp3 podcasts (activated by the firmware upgrade in the 6-26-2005 iPod updater) and the new podcast support in iTunes 4.9 expanded sensitivity to these files. Problems associated with bookmarking (which seem to include increased power drain, stuttering, pauses, and resets) appear to be present with these additional "bookmarkable" files on the disk of your iPod.

[david1951]

I know this isn't quite on-topic, but I just had to say that I've experienced first hand, for the very first time, the hang-up on play of mono .m4b files.

Boy, was it a severe lock-up! I couldn't make my iPod listen to me no matter how many times I pressed the reset combination. It was just like a dead rock. Had to take it in to the local Apple Centre, who managed to wake it up.

It was only after returning home that I thought to check the current book I'm listening to. I hadn't realised that it had ended up as mono. I had started from a mono source, and I hadn't twigged that you have to force your custom encode setting to be 'stereo' and not 'auto'.

Now I understand how bad other people have been feeling when this hits them! I think MarkAble might get some stronger warning messages!

[moriond]

Originally posted by kickshots
I have a 4g 20gb iPod, and I use Itunes with OS X Tiger.
I have been listening to audiobooks I made from CDs and converted to bookmarkable ACC files using the "make bookmarkable" script for several months now without a problem...until Itunes 4.9 and the latest firmware update.

The current book I am listening to is ACC , Stereo, 44khz, low complexity and bookmarkable. The file is split into 20-22mb chunks.
My iPod always needs to be reset everytime I listen to this book.
Based on previous threads, here is what I know:
-My files are Stereo ACC files, which should prevent the issue.
-They are less than 32mb, which should prevent the issue.

kickshots,
There's been some interesting discussion related to this topic in this post and its followups. Could you try applying Advanced -> Convert ID3 tags to these audiobook files? (I would try tag version 2.3 first; using None will, among other things, remove Album artwork. While that's not an issue here, using v. 2.3 is in line with the Mac FixIt recommendations). If that doesn't fix the reset problems, try converting to lower ID3 tag versions (including none). Let us know if this helps.

Addendum: If you converted these files directly to AAC from CD, using the convert ID3 tags (which applies to mp3 tags) does not have any affect on the resulting AAC files which were made bookmarkable. I think the relevant questions are: (1) do other homemade audiobooks (ripped from CD and made bookmarkable with the Make Bookmarkable AppleScript, and which previously played without problems, now cause freeze-ups? and (2) do other homemade audiobooks ripped from CDs and made bookmarkable since the iTunes 4.9 and 6-26-2005 firmware update also give problems? Also, (3) do you autosync or manually update your iPod? (For autosync, your entire iTunes Music Library.xml file gets rewritten to the iPod; for manual or semi-automatic sync, only selected entries get updated).

Originally posted by kickshots
Also, to update my situation, I just got finished listening to some music, mp3s, and after I paused and the Pod shut down, it would not come back. I had to reset. This is the first time it happened with an mp3 that I know of.

I realize you just want your tracks to play without problems rather than spending time diagnosing this, so here's what I'd recommend for now:

• For your iTunes Library do File->Select All and then Advanced->Convert ID3 tags choosing the v2.3 option.
• Since you have Podcasts, go into the Podcast Directory, too, and do File->Select All then Advanced->Convert ID3 tags again choosing the v2.3 option.
• For future book importing, try using the AAC podcast setting (22.050 kHz)

This may not be a complete solution for your problems, but since you experienced a freeze-up while playing mp3 files it's worth trying to convert the mp3 ID3 tags. QuickTime 7 is stricter about acceptable format specs and this is an easy fix to try which is unlikely to have noticeable side effects for you. The AAC podcast setting uses lower sampling rate that are optimized for voice recordings, so it will produce smaller files of good audio quality that will likely play more gracefully on your iPod. Good luck.

Edited to use thread originator's login name, and to append "Addendum" section

[robert]

I see how to change an mp3 before conversion to AAC, or an mp3 converted to bookmarking mp3 using the R click Convert ID3 tags to none. I shall try that and incorporate into guides.

I would love to be able to Convert ID3 tags on existing AAC files, but I cannot find the key to doing so. R click on an AAC file does not give the Convert ID3 option. Any ideas, Moriond, David, others on how to do without having to go back to original mp3 or converting back to mp3?

An mp3 file converted to bookmarking mp3 using MarkAble does allow converting ID3 tag to none.

Robert

[moriond]

Robert,

I don't know a way to convert the ID3 tags of an mp3 file after iTunes has converted that file to AAC; and these have been merged into the mp4 container. In kickshot's case, it's possible, given the size (20-22 MB) of his audiobook files that they were imported directly from CD as AAC files. In that case there may be other issues behind his freezes. I recommended the ID3 tag conversion of Library and Podcast files in the edited post Addendum because kickshot had a lockup on playing an mp3 file, and these freezes only started after his upgrade to iTunes 4.9 and the new 6-26-2005 firmware update.

It's true that iTunes 4.9 is more finicky about media file formats, naming extensions (some mp3 files get identified as movies!), and ID3 tagging as evidenced by the Mac FixIt special report mentioned in the post following jonboy's proposed solution of using an ID3 tag conversion to format=none. Most people probably want to keep the ID3 tags on their music files, which is why I suggested converting to version 2.3 (the version that fixed the Mac iTunes 4.9 lockups in the report); if you don't care about using more tag keywords than iTunes maintains as its basic set, by all means set the mp3 ID3 tag conversion format to none. (Note that the Mac FixIt solution was a fix for iTunes rather than iPod lockups, however).

I think this all goes back to the question of how the headers on these files (with any inherited mp3 ID3 tags) interact with the iPod firmware for bookmarking as discussed in this post of the How are mp3 podcasts bookmarkable? thread.

Do you know whether CD files imported directly to AAC format (either mono or stereo) and made bookmarkable play without problems on Clickwheel iPods? I haven't found an answer to this question. If AAC files imported by joining all CD audio tracks play without causing lockups (especially if the mono versions play without problems) on the 4G/mini/PhotoiPods it's more likely that the problem arises from the intermediate merged mp3 files, perhaps because of their ID3 tag structure. It would be good to check this out with some tests before you update contents of the Guides.

P.S. Do you have an efficient way of grabbing and inserting posting links? Especially links to individual forum posts (as opposed to threads)? It takes me at least two steps to do this if I don't keep a file open which contains links that I go back to so I can cut and paste -- I'd really like an option to grab the link to an arbitrary post.

[robert]

Originally posted by moriond
Robert,
Do you know whether CD files imported directly to AAC format (either mono or stereo) and made bookmarkable play without problems on Clickwheel iPods? I haven't found an answer to this question. If AAC files imported by joining all CD audio tracks play without causing lockups (especially if the mono versions play without problems) on the 4G/mini/PhotoiPods it's more likely that the problem arises from the intermediate merged mp3 files, perhaps because of their ID3 tag structure. It would be good to check this out with some tests before you update contents of the Guides.

P.S. Do you have an efficient way of grabbing and inserting posting links? Especially links to individual forum posts (as opposed to threads)? It takes me at least two steps to do this if I don't keep a file open which contains links that I go back to so I can cut and paste -- I'd really like an option to grab the link to an arbitrary post.

Thanks for the input.

Now that I think about it, I haven't played a CD conversion on my clickwheel for a long time -- all of my current conversions coming from audio recorded to mp3. Pre 4.9, I did play CD conversions without problems. They were all limited in size by the one file per CD limitations of iTunes conversion, or by David's built in size limitations on the MarkAble CD Wizard. But, as far as 4.9 is concerned, I don't know the answer to your question about CD's directly converted to AAC.

After corresponding with moderators, I learned that to link a specific post, being PC, I have to click quote on the specific post to pick up the link -- two steps, as you note. It is a bit of a pain, since I understand that mac will provide the link merely by positioning the cursor over the quote button. The link has to be in this form, using the number from the quote:
http://forums.ipodlounge.com/showthr...259#post642259
Edit, the truncated info is showthread.php?s=&postid=642259#post642259
Interestingly, I picked this example from the "go to first unread post" arrow of a single post thread. Clicking on the thread gives me this link:
http://forums.ipodlounge.com/showthr...hreadid=110492
and the quote window shows this link
http://forums.ipodlounge.com/newrepl...&postid=642259

Thanks for your contributions to the forum.

[moriond]

Originally posted by robert
Now that I think about it, I haven't played a CD conversion on my clickwheel for a long time -- all of my current conversions coming from audio recorded to mp3. Pre 4.9, I did play CD conversions without problems.

Perhaps the question should be, were you able to play mono CD conversions made directly to AAC on your iPod mini without lockup problems pre-iTunes 4.9? There are a couple of issues here for the 4G/mini/Photo iPods: (1) general increased susceptibility to skips lockups, and freezes -- now with regular mp3 files and bookmarkable podcasts and (2) the long-standing mono-lockup problem for homemade bookmarkable audiobooks. Was it truly a lockup playing any mono AAC file that was made bookmarkable or was this only seen for mono AAC files converted from merged mp3 files and made bookmarkable?

There may be problems with the way iTunes reads mp3 ID3 tags and then with the database information transferred to the iPod and used for playback. That's known to be problematic for variable bit rate mp3 files produced by other encorders that may get cut off (for example, see this vbr-mp3-fix web page).

Excerpted from VBR Mp3 Fix
...iTunes uses an old school "header" to designate VBR (Variable BitRate) files...If your VBR files don't have the header, you are going to have problems, such as not being able to seek through your files, having files cut out prematurely, and having an incorrect total time reported.

Such VBR files may also be associated with stability issues and skipping, even on older iPods (according to this Apple Discussions thread.

Excerpted from iPod unstable for VBR MP3? (June 6, 2005 post)
I also use high-quality VBR MP3 files, and though I've never had my third-gen 40 gig iPod freeze, I've been noticing random skipping lately that I'm suspecting might be related to decoding VBR MP3s. Have you ever run into this?

I'll notice that during playback, some songs seem to skip: it's as if a fraction of a second of the audio drops out or is discarded. It always happens at the same point in the songs that skip, and the files on my computer do not contain the skips. None of the AAC files on my iPod skips, FWIW.

I thought that I might be running into bad disk sectors, but neither the WindowsXP chkdsk utility nor the iPod diagnostic mode disc scan reports any disk troubles. Sometimes, removing the song from my iPod and readding it will resolve the issue.

It's also known that there are stuttering problems in the 2G mini with mp3 files encoded with with LAME in place of iTunes as described in this Apple Discussion Forum thread

Excerpted from iPod update 2005-06-26 fails to address serious issue (June 28, 2005 post)
The stuttering occuring on 2G iPod mini when playing back LAME encoded MP3 files has NOT been addressed with iPod mini software 1.4.

iPod mini 2G use clock speed optimisation to increase battery time.
VBR songs with a sudden increase in bitrate may cause the iPod mini 2G to stutter as the clock speed is not increased fast enough to deal with the increased bitrate.

This has so far been observed for songs encoded with LAME --preset standard and is only true when not using the equaliser.

Further observations:

- problem with iPod mini software 1.3 and 1.4
- iPod mini 2G do not use optimisation when connected to a computer
- iPod mini 2G do use optimisation, both when using its battery and when connected to a powered dock that is not connected to a computer- The problem go away when using an EQ setting different from flat/off
- The problem do not occur when using iTunes MP3 encoder
- The problem do not always occur at the same spot in the song

(This is excerpted from a very long and detailed description of the problem for the 2G mini (vs 1G) and under what conditions it is seen -- main point for our thread is that the problems don't occur when the encoding was done with iTunes).

I can believe that removing all mp3 ID3 tags before conversion to AAC helps the stability of home-made bookmarking, but it's odd (though still plausible) that this should be true even for mp3 files encoded by iTunes.

What's more worrisome are the other fragilities seen with the updated 4G/mini/Photo iPods. See, in particular, John Im's comments in this Apple Discussion thread

Excerpted from iPod skips or cut off songs (May 13, 2005 post in thread)
I've been following this problem for the past several months, when I first started noticing it with my 2G iPod. It seems to have started with one of the recent updates to iTunes.

Basically, all songs I ripped (160AAC) 1+ years ago play fine. No skipping at all.

MOST (but not all) songs I've ripped in the past 8 months (320AAC). If a song is affected, it ALWAYS skips on the iPod (never in iTunes). I've tried ripping directly from CD, as well as converting to AAC from Apple Losses. I even tried re-ripping at 160 AAC, but these also skipped on the iPod.

Digging a bit deeper, I found that the Song Length tag was different between the AAC files and the Apple Lossless files.

So, I edited the tag, shortening each song by .001 seconds. BINGO! Now, every song plays to the end! It think the trick is to simply change the tag. It doesn't seem to matter if you shorten or lengthen the time, as long as it's by a small amount.

This is bizarre -- it involves AAC files, and the old AAC files are fine. A second poster claimed this fix worked for him (no mention of iPod model type of file types), and the final poster (Jul 13, 2005) claimed seeing songs failing to play through on a 4G iPod, but only after the recent firmware update and move to iTunes 4.9. This is like kickshots' report of problems starting with the most recent firmware upgrade/iTunes install.

I'm not sure what to conclude from all this, but mp3 tagging/encoding sources certainly can affect iPod playback, especially on the new models.

[david1951]

Wow! There's a lot to absorb here, and it's of vital interest to me.

When I merge MP3 files, I start by actually building my own ID3 tag from scratch (the format is essentially trivial). So if changes to the ID3 tag affect the dreaded mono .m4b crash, then I'll change how I do it right away.

But it seems bizarre. The ID3 format, as I say, is hardly a complex beast.