New thread about audiobook freeze. Different conditions.

[robert]

I did only a very few AAC conversions in Mono, so I am not at all sure if I did any CD's that way. Just lucky, I left at stereo default and by chance did one in mono and simultaneously discovered the mono problem described in Apple Discussions and reported it in this forum.
I am not technical, so the conversation is rapidly getting over my head here. I hope some of you technical guys can figure it out and tell us how to solve.

[robert]

Copy of email to David,

I have some language lesson files that I had converted to 6 and 7 hour mp3 files and then, with MarkAble, to m4b files for my daughter. She has not begun using them, and in my concern that the over 5 hours files will cause her iPod to lock up, I decided to test the ultimate of Jonboy's and Moriond's theses and use the original mp3 mono files and combine into large files and convert them to bookmarking mono mp3 files with MarkAble. For whatever reason -- probably my oversight in the first save of the files -- they are all 44,100 kHz and 128 kbps and I am not in the mood to spend the time to go thru an AAC conversion to lower kbps, stereo, etc.

In going back to the original mp3 files to create bookmarking mp3 files with MarkAble I experienced a couple of strange things:

1. When converting the one short file (5:18), I get a MarkAble message "Problem encountered during conversion" and when click ok, get "iTunes did not return track handle step 3."

2. I used MarkAble to Merge two sets two files of approx 7 hours each into two files. In each MarkAble merger/conversions I got the same message as above.

However, MarkAble created all the files in my iTunes Library and the only one I have tested thus far is bookmarking.

I decided to go all the way and see if removing or changing ID3 tag would do as Jonboy says to play mono and large and long files, After using MarkAble to merge a 7:10 file and a 7:52 file to one mp3 bookmarkable, I went to iTunes Library to convert ID3 tags to none. MarkAble remained open (which may be the problem) and iTunes crashed. Genre changed and when I went to info to change genre back to what I wanted, iTunes went into an ID3 tag operation and crashed. Subsequently upon opening iTunes I was able to change genre. I am wondering if iTunes must have ID3 tag to identify genre and if Moriond's suggestion to use ID3v2.3 is best. Interestingly, the files have been placed in my music files: iTunes\iTunes Music\Podcasts\Spanish X. I did nothing to request the Podcasts folder.

The files now show ID3v2.2 for file that I had tried to do a convert ID3 to none and the other three files show ID3v2.3. (R click, get info)

Next step is to test one of the files, preferably one of the 15 hour files which are 760 to 825 MB in size (the 44,100 kHz and 128kbps are in play), to see if it locks up my iPod. For now, I am going to leave ID3 tag versions where they are. Of course, if I experience lock up, the next step will be to convert to AAC stereo, hoping that the ID3 tag will carry through. Perhaps I will convert one file to ID3 none, one to ID3v2.3. This testing may take a while with imminent arrival of grandsons, ages 5 and 10.

I think it best to also post this email in the forum to enlist all the brainpower possible in figuring this out.

Regards,

Robert

[david1951]

Just a quick response (it's about 3 AM here): the file got put in the Podcast directory because the way the Quick Convert works is to fool iTunes into thinking that the file is a podcast. Can't do much about that. Apple clearly wants to restrict MP3 bookmarking to podcasts.

I'll have to look at all the rest of this thread in detail when I have some clear time. Tomorrow, maybe (after I catch up on sleep!).

[robert]

Re the language files post above: Having highlighed all four language files and with a R click "get info" and changed album for all to "Spanish" to get the files into one folder, I now find that all the tags are ID3v2.3

I used Markable to convert another group of five mp3 audiobook files to bookmarking mp3 files. No Problem Occurred message on these files which are five hour, stereo, 40kbps, 22,050 kmhz and ID3v2.3. I set those sampling and kbps rates in TotalRecorder, and I am guessing that my telling TotalRecorder to use sound card with Soundcard input and Stereo mix may have caused these to be created in stereo. Edit: I now remember that I used Audacity to record these files because it was greater than the max 24 hour limitation of Total Recorder. I have Audacity I/O preferences set to recording two channels (stereo), which resulted in these files being stereo when I saved segments None of these files has been through an iTunes 4.9 conversion, which may result in a different ID3 such as v2.4.

While thinking this out, I used Markable to combine the first four files into one 20:52 bookmarkable mp3 file without encountering the Problem Occurred message. MarkAble said the resulting file for all five files would be 27+ hours, even though none of the 5 files was in excess of 5 hours. Since this is only a test file, I combined only the first four. I think I will test this file first since it is stereo and smaller than my 128kbps files, thereby reducing the variables. This file is 32kbps, 16,000kmhz (don't ask me how that came to be), and is 286.8 MB.

David, what does checking "Use File ID tags if Present" do in MarkAble? It is unchecked in my MarkAble and I have not even thought about it in the past. Probably in your instructions. *S*

[robert]

see edit in post above re why second set of audio files is stereo.

Preliminary and limited results: Have run the 20 hour mp3 286.8 MB stereo bookmarking file on iPod with out lock up or loss of bookmark so far. Perhaps stereo is the solution. On to test the mono files to see, but they are large and that is an additional variable.

I need to create a new (that I have not yet listened to) 22,050 mhz and 32 kbps large file in both mono and stereo. Then play with both the mono and stereo versions and different ID3 tags to play out like I do a normal audio book listen to determine if locks up or skips to beginning of file.

[moriond]

Wow, a lot to digest. First off, if you are planning to send mp3 files to someone else you don't want to strip out the ID3 tags -- that contains all the information on song name, artist, album, genre, playing time, etc. When you add the file to iTunes this information, with any editing additions or changes that you make, gets put into your iTunes Music Library.xml database file. If you strip out the ID3 tag information from the music file, your library database file will still contain this information, and can update it on your iPod. But I'd guess that if you burn the file as an mp3 CD that information might not be on the disc. Information on these tags would get written out to an additional ContentsDB.xml file if you burn this as a data disc, but you wouldn't be able to play the data disc in an mp3 player. (If someone wants to add this to their iTunes Music Library they can insert the CD and use Add to Library to add both the mp3s and the information about it from your library database file.)

This situation is a little like having a CD which has no entries in the CDDB database -- if you edit all the fields for genre, artist, album, etc. in your version of iTunes that information will afterwords show up on your machine whenever you insert that CD. Inserting the same CD into someone else's computer shows none of that information. Audio CDs have no tag information for song names, etc.

If you strip out all ID3 tags from your mp3 file it won't have any of this information, either. In Jonboy's case, the mp3 file is only an intermediate step in the conversion. For the final mp4 file he is using the information in his library database to get information on the song name, artist, genre, etc. His iPod also uses its copy of this file.

When I create or convert an mp3 file in iTunes I get v.2.2 ID3 tags.

David will have to comment on the MarkAble specific problems.

[robert]

my largest mp3 bookmarking mono Spanish file, when re-started from several minute pause at halfway point of the file, played for a few seconds and reverted to Playlist menu item. Upon returning to the file, there was no bookmark.

I am going to do an AAC stereo conversion at 32kbps and auto HZ sampling rate on this 15:02 file. Will do manually, and if works, will do a MarkAble conversion on the other three files.

Thanks, Moriond. I suspected as much when I saw a change in info begin a ID3 iTunes operation. So, we should keep ID3, but probably v2.3.

Interesting that this very large file is not stuttering or skipping.

[david1951]

I'm going to have to print all of this out and read it several times before I can even begin to synthesize it all.

I can make the ID3 tags any flavour I like in files which MarkAble merges. It would certainly be good to get it right. I have noticed myself that sometimes iTunes completely gets the file duration completely wrong on files which I merge - but after AAC conversion they are fine.

Robert, the "Use ID tags if present" option in MarkAble is intended for people who are batching merged files for several different books, or compilations of lectures, or podcasts, etc. Basically, it's supposed to do exactly what it says - ignore the "Title" and "Author" and "Genre" fields in the MarkAble main window and use the information it finds in the ID3 tag of the file it is converting. I THINK it works correctly, but I know that it doesn't actually preserve all of the ID3 information beyond the basics.

[robert]

Thanks, David. That may solve my file identification problem when I create Book Name 1_5U, Book Name 2_5U, etc.

I think we know this much so far:
Everyone who is going for the MarkAble bookmarking mp3 file (as opposed to full AAC conversion) should be certain to save or create the mp3 file in stereo.

David, Markable did not want to convert the mp3 bookmarking files. When I added the bookmarking mp3 files from my iTunes music folder to the MarkAble window and convert all, Markable went thru some motions and quickly stopped in a normal sort of way, but the files were not converted. I am away overnight, so I just left my computer doing a manual AAC conversion (itunes r click) and will rename them and sort out the files tomorrow.

I am also seeing some strange playcount/smart playlist behavior -- that is, the played files show a 1 playcount, but do not disappear from a smart playlist even when go to menu and back.

I left my computer at home converting the spanish language files to AAC in stereo since the mono locked up. Will try to at least superficially test tommorrow night. At least the files will be smaller.

I have a 15 hour file mp3, ID3v2.3 bookmarking, 32kbps with me on my iPod that I can play with a bit tomorrow afternoon.

[david1951]

Originally posted by robert
David, Markable did not want to convert the mp3 bookmarking files. When I added the bookmarking mp3 files from my iTunes music folder, Markable went thru some motions and quiockly stopped in a normal sort of way, but the files were not converted.

I think this IS a bug - I mustn't be popping up the Full/Quick convert dialog if I already find a 'Podcast' tag. I'll fix this.

I am also seeing some strange playcount/smart playlist behavior -- that is, the played files show a 1 playcount, but do not disappear from a smart playlist even when go to menu and back.

Welcome to iPod updater 2005-6-26. This version of the updater completely kills Live Updating. There's been considerable negative comment about this in other forums. See this discussion. For a while Apple were trying to pretend that this functionality never existed! Now, you have to resync with your computer before your Smart Playlists are updated. This is the pits!

[robert]

I played a 213.9 mb, 12:27:30, 40 kbps, 22,050 kmh, showing ID3 v2.3, MarkAble mp3 bookmarking audio book file this afternoon with no lock ups or loss of bookmark upon restart. I did not listen as I would listen to a book-- began playing, moved to mid-book, played a few minutes, paused, sometimes turn off, sometimes did not, resumed in a few minutes. Did this maybe a dozen times with no problems. I will tomorrow play in the same way the language files which I have now converted to AAC to see if I get lock ups or loss of bookmark upon restart.

In converting the language files, I noted that the m4a files show the ID3 version, and typically they are v2.3 and sometimes v2.2. Once renamed to m4b, the files do not show the ID3 version, only that the file was encoded by iTunes v4.9.0.17 and Quick Time v 6.5.2. (R click>get info>summary)

Based on posts by Moriond, David, and Jonboy,and my experience I put forth this hypothesis:

1. That a large mono ID3 v2.3, or lower, file has the lose-bookmark-upon-restart problem unless it undergoes a ID3 conversion.
2. That a large stereo ID3 v2.3, or lower, file does not have the lose-bookmark-upon-restart or the lock-up problems.
3. That AAC files converted from mp3, wav, etc, files retain the ID3 tag of the original mp3 file and do not have the lose-bookmark-upon-restart or the lock-up problems.
4. That audio CD's imported by iTunes and converted during import to AAC, result in files with ID3 v higher than 2.3 and lock up iPod.

I am not at all sure about item 4, since I have yet to convert an audiobook CD to iPod file with iTunes 4.9. It would be interesting to know if all the problem files are CD conversions.

Most of my conversions are from mp3 files created with software or freeware that predates ID3v higher than 2.3 and therefore operate without problems on iPod.

I cannot replicate a lock up with my iPod, having experienced such with mono files in prior iTunes and iPod updater versions. This leads me to the conclusion that the lock ups are now coming from CD's imported into iTunes, which uses ID3 v2.4.

If this makes sense, it would help to know which version of ID3 version files are locking up and loosing bookmarks. If already converted and renamed m4b, I had thought renaming back to m4a would show ID3 version in R click>Get Info>Summary View. Unfortunately, it does not.

If this is so, perhaps David could instruct iTunes to use ID3 v2.3 on both mp3 and m4b conversions or to tag the files in a way that does the same. As far as I can see, the ordinary user had no way to force a CD import at ID3 v2.3, or to convert an m4b file to 2.3.

[david1951]

Robert:

This is a clear summary, but it's not quite right in my experience.

After trying and failing to get a 20 minute long mono .m4b to lock up my 4G iPod, I agree that length may have something to do with it - your comment about 'large' mono files is probably right.

I definitely got a bad, bad, lock-up on my new iPod with a large mono .m4b file I converted directly from WAV. I didn't check the tagging version of the end result, though (deleted the damn thing immediately and reconverted in stereo).

I'll try a CD convert directly to AAC in iTunes and see what happens.

Hmmm, there are so many variables here. Time to draw up a grid and test all possibilities, *sigh*.

[robert]

Very preliminary on mp3 files created by PolderbitS and now converted to AAC:

1. Does not lock up.
2. First couple of restarts do not revert to beginning of book or menu.

[moriond]

Originally posted by robert

Based on posts by Moriond, David, and Jonboy,and my experience I put forth this hypothesis:

4. That audio CD's imported by iTunes and converted during import to AAC, result in files with ID3 v higher than 2.3 and lock up iPod.

I am not at all sure about item 4, since I have yet to convert an audiobook CD to iPod file with iTunes 4.9. It would be interesting to know if all the problem files are CD conversions.

Robert, as I noted above, mp3 files produced from audioc CD rips in iTunes or convert from other formats are ID3 v.2.2 for me, with QuickTime 6.5.2. I see from this document at the Apple Site that you are also using QT 6.5.2, but kickshots was using QT 7.0.1 if he loaded Tiger. I'll have to edit the earlier posting, since I thought QT 7 was also bundled with the Windows version of iTunes 4.9.

[robert]

Well, that blows hypothetical item 4, unless only mac users are locking up. I can't get a lock up on any of the files combo's I have tried. Must be a variable that I have not picked up on.

The only files I have ever had lock up were mono and none recently at all.