Slow Sync Speed - USB2.0 AND Firewire

[captkenjeroo]

Hey there-

I've been lurking in the forums for the past few days, trying to bone-up on my iPod knowledge and review what's already been covered. This problem seems to have been touched on, but I wanted to address it a little more directly.

Me:
-running XP Pro, Pentium 4 1.7GB, 512MB RAM (100Mhz), 80GB Maxtor DiamondMax Plus HD (as my tunes drive), MM 7.5 (I know, I know - but I've tried MC9 and it keeps crashing).

Problem:

-painfully slow sync speed (about 3.3MB/Sec)
-occasional duplication of files(songs, albums)

What I've done so far:

-Originally had a Belkin firewire PCI card (said it was Windows XP compatible, although I have heard it was dodgy at times). When I finally got my iPod recognized, mounted, formatted, etc., it would download at about 3-8MB/Sec - YIKES! After a few songs, it would say iPod full. Well, I did reset the iPod while it was attached to the charger (NOT the cradle) as well as disable my anti-virus software. That allowed me to upload more songs (rather than the 5 or so before crapping out) but still, at about 3-8MB/Sec. After much restarting, re-installing of iPod 2.0.1, unistalling MM 8.0, installing MC9, uninstalling everything and going with MM7.5 (as a factory setting starting point to test with again), I still get that slow sync speed. Even with MC9 (although that gave me more like 5-10MB/Sec. Still, painfully slow

-Called Apple, figured it might be the Belkin card. Heard Adaptec 4300 was the way to go. Wondered if rather than the hassle of a new PCI card, just go with USB 2.0 and the apple USB2.0 kit. Was told to expect about 1GB/MIN transfer rate with either Firewire for windows or USB2.0 adaptor kit. Currently using a Belkin USB2.0 card that works fine with all my other hardware. With the USB2.0/firewire adaptor kit, I'm still getting only about 3.3MB/SEC transfer. :(

At this point, I think I've at least narrowed down what the problem is. Adam Shawley has mentioned removing the iPod Manager software among others, but I've installed/un-installed/re-installed so many times and tested at those settings that I'm kind of losing hope. :( I'm willing to keep trying different options/tried-and-true options, but maybe I just have a faulty iPod? If I could find that out, that'd help, so I could convince the Apple folks at the Apple store to exchange it rather than giving me a hard time.

Can someone please help? Much thanks.

[captkenjeroo]

Hi All,

Just in case people were wondering (and in case anyone wants to post a suggestion), here's what I found through additional investigation:

I wound up taking my 1st iPod back and the Apple store was very cool about giving me a new one, no restocking fee (after I explained all the problems I had encountered, which included others other than the previous post). I'll refer to this iPod as "#1" and the new one as "#2"

So, when I took #1 to the Apple store, I wanted to have them test the speed there. We formatted the iPod, put the Mac version of software on it and let'er rip via firewire (an iBook - don't know the specs of it). There were 81 songs we sync'd and it stated it was 302megabytes. It took approx. 40 secs according to my watch. So given that, it's about 8MB/sec. As a benchmark, USB 2.0 is supposed to get 480 megaBITS/sec. So since 1 megabyte = 8 megabits, doesn't this mean that #1, at the Apple store, syncing with an iBook, gives 64megabits/sec? If so, that is TREMENDOUSLY slow and no where near the projected speed. This lead me to believe my iPod was faulty.

I brought home iPod #2. Same deal - 40GB, using it on Windows XP Pro, Pentium 4, 1.7Ghz, 512MB RAM.

Based on all I learned here and through calls w/Apple, this time around the setup went smoothly. Using MusicMatch 7.5 (I was told 8.0 was still buggy for Windows) and the USB 2.0 converter (through a Belkin improved performance 2.0 PCI 5 port card), I downloaded 182megabytes in 60 secs, so essentially, 3MB/sec or 24megabits/sec. Nowhere near the projected 480megabits/sec of USB 2.0 (even the reviews of different USB 2.0 PCI cards I read online said that they got between 180-240megabits/sec.

So what's going on here? :confused: Any thoughts? Am I totally wrong here or is this happening to other people? I am pretty disappointed on the syncing performance, but truth be told, I'm just pumped that my iPod is finally working on Windows. I suppose I'll just sync it occasionally to add new music. But it really is a shame that it would take HOURS to sync a full 40GB iPod.

Thanks for any thoughts!

[ashawley]

Nicely detailed posts here captkenjeroo.

One thing you can try as a test, is to take MMJB out of the picture. Grab a batch of mp3s (like a 100 or so) and copy them to a folder you make on the iPod though My Computer/Explorer. Then just copy them over that way. See how long it takes and divide by the total size for all the files. That will let you know how your PC is doing w/o any software getting in the way.

Now, when you actually upload to the iPod, you shoud expect it to be a little slower as uploads require entries be made in the iPod's database, but not really significantly.

I've found MMJB to be the slowest.

MC9 is probably the fastest, if you want to give it another go, make sure you get the 9.1 beta, don't go w/the 9.0 version. It's considered "old" now. ;) They develop fast.

Or, just go w/ephpod if you want something cheap and just want the bare bones in features.

Adam

[captkenjeroo]

Thanks for your advice, Adam. Was a good idea that I hadn't thought of.

So I took a folder with 87 files (480MB) and dragged from my HD *(Maxtor 80GB 7200RPM 8MB cache) to the iPod as a harddrive. It took 130 seconds, so approx 3.69MB/sec which is approximately 29.54megabits/sec. As you correctly predicted, slightly faster than MMJB (which I reported earlier as approx. 24megabits/sec for my setup).

But now this leaves me to wonder. If *no* software is getting in the way of transferring the files, I'm getting about 30megabits/sec. So I assume MC9 will give me somewhere between MMJB's 24mb/sec and the drag/drop 30mb/sec.

So I am guessing this speed (or lack of) problem is particular to my setup, since 2 different iPods on my machine have done about that transfer rate. (Still wonder why iPod #1 only got about 64megabits/sec on the iBook at the Apple Store?) :confused:

I'm not a PC components wizard, but I'm wondering if it's possible that my motherboard or other hardware components/configuration are responsible for the slowing down of transfer rates (it's a "home-grown" PC that a guy I knew built, although the processing/memory specs are rather decent). I really have no idea why it seems to be transferring so slow.

If anyone else happens to have some transfer rates/numbers for comparison that'd be great. Maybe this is happening for everyone, or maybe it is just me and I have expectations that are too high for transfer rates.

On the subject of MC9(.1), if I want to try that again, do I need to re-format my iPod to use MC9.1 as my sync software (*sigh* :( - esp. given how long it takes to load files) ? It appears that otherwise the iPod isn't recognized by my existing and still-installed version of MC9.0.

Thanks again for thoughts-

Kenji

[larrybird]

I too am questioning the speed. However, I think there are a number of
issues.

With a brand new 40GB I was getting about 1.5MB/s with MMJB. Horrid.
I then tried ephPod. Playing with the settings I was able to get 1.9MB/s,
still pretty bad (best was using windows API). I then said to myself...
let me try copying a really big file just using regular windows cut and past.
I copied a 3.7GB mp4, which took 575 secs, for a rate of 6.7MB/s. Thats
a lot better, but still underwhelms.

I then thought a little more (yes theres smoke coming out of my head!),
and said.. let me try the same copy to another drive in my system, a
3yr old maxtor drive. Well, it sucked quite badly - 3.6MB/s. This led
me to conclude:

1) There are clearly software issues at work - both MMJB and eP are
significantly slower than a straight file copy,

2) There are clearly hardware issues regarding our expectations of speed.

#1, I really dont see what we can do about, at least at this time.
#2, may in fact be false expectations on our part.

I think we are kidding ourselves to expect the same throughput as the
the interface - 400Mbit/sec, or 50MB/s. Why? First, even high end
top of the line ide drives have a hard time sustaining that level of
througput. Second, I believe the ipod is using an IBM travelstar drive
that runs at 4200 rpm (at least that was the case with the 20GB
model). Specs on the 30Gb model of this drive indicate max/min
transfers of 27 and 15 MB/s. Those are raw numbers, and dont
take into account seek times and drive overhead. Does all this mean
it should get down to 6-7MB/s as on my straight file copy? I dont know,
that seems a big haircut, but I suppose its possible.

[captkenjeroo]

I hear you Larry Bird - i think the phrase "Big Haircut" sizes it up just right.

Thanks for letting me know about your speed rate/issues as well. I've now moved from the denial phase to the acceptance phase ;)

I think it's probably time I bite the bullet and just format my iPod and ditch MMJB and start anew with MC9. The expiration of my 30 day free trial should coincide with the rumored iTunes/Windows launch (which I'm sure will provide bugs and quirks of it's own).

Cheers-

Kenji

[larrybird]

here's a follow up sure to disappoint many of you:

when I tested the straight file copy, it was from a different drive than
the one with my audio files. I had thought this drive was more or less
'fast' as far as things went two years ago when I got it. Apparently not.
Or not enough for the ipod.

I have a number of large (>30 MB) tracks and did a file copy from my
audio drive to my regular drive.. 2MB/sec. This pretty much explains
my iPod xfer rates of 1.6-1.9 MB/sec.

I then copied 6 of these files to my main drive, which is a raid 10 using
some seagate 7200 rpm drives I got last december. Was able to
transfer these to the iPod at 6.4 MB/s. I think I was still using the
windows api, so I might be able to squeeze a little more :)

So there you have it. You all need to go out and buy some fast
drives and make put them in a raid !

[larrybird]

one final thought on this -

i had some time this afternoon to look into why that disk drive was so
slow. The long and short of it was I resinstalled the latest amd eide
driver (under winxp). Eventhough windows claimed ti was already
installed, it seems it was not using busmastering. With the driver
now reinstalled I am getting 16.5 MB/s transfering between this
drive and my RAID array vs 2 MB/s before. So you might want to
take a look at your systems and make sure that busmastering is
properly enabled, perhaps going so far (your risk!) of reinstalling the
appropriate driver.

[captkenjeroo]

Wow - well 16.5MB/s is considerably better than 2.

2 questions (and I'm not sure if this is a can of worms I should open), but:

1) How does one make sure "busmastering" is enabled? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure which driver needs to be re-installed

2) What exactly is a Raid array? (and is this crucial in addition to question 1 being resolved to achieve that performance increase?)I looked it up in Google but found mostly sites that sell a Raid drive case, but not much in terms of general info.

Would you happen to be able to point me in the right way?

Cheers-

Kenji

[larrybird]

hi,

well remember the 16.5 MB/s is the drive itself, not the ipod. I'm now
getting about 6.5 MB/s on the ipod, which kinda fits what others are
getting and likely the limitations of a slower RPM.

As far as determining if bus mastering is enabled. It depends on the OS.
If I recall right, under 95 or 98 there is actually a check box when looking
at either the drive or ide controller through the device manager. I am
using XP, and there wasn't anything so obvious. Also, as I mentioned,
it appeared that I had already installed the drivers, but the act of
re-installing, with the latest greatest (all it had was a letter after the
version number so wasnt a major upgrade), seemed to re-enable this
feature.

Do you have more than one drive in your system? That is what clued
me in - I copied a very large file from one drive to the other and timed
it. Any drive of very recent vintage should be > 10MB/s. Failing that,
I would recommend checking the site for the maker of your
motherboard and look to see if they have anything related to ide bus
mastering drivers. I would use caution tho, make sure you have the
right thing for your system before doing anything! I see you in
particular have a pentium under XP. I recall from my P3 days with winNT
that intel themself put out a special bus mastering driver. I've no idea
if that is still the case.


As far as what RAID is, generally its defined as Redundant Array of
Inexpensive Disks. I would point you towards http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/perf/raid/ for a very
good document on raid. There are many subtypes, mine is what
is called 10. I have 4 drives setup as 2 pairs. The controller card writes
the data across 2 drives (this is called striping) , and the other two are
backup. So if one drive were to fail, the controller immediately uses the
backup. The striping adds speed on read backs as you can use multiple
channels to read the data. Don't bother with software raid, its slow and
not very flexible. There are a number of very cheap (<100) and cheap
(<300) hardware cards available. Anyways, this is really going beyond
the ipod itself, so check out that document or just search around for
more info.

[captkenjeroo]

LB - thanks for the detailed information on both points. You've given me a good point from which to start my research.

Cheers-

Kenji

[Ryder]

I read the first post, I didnt read the rest, sorry if Ive got the wrong end of the stick but whats wrong with downloading songs to the Ipod at 3mb?

Er.. Mine is around 3mb. :(

I thought that was perfectly fine, most songs are 3-5mb, don't you think your being a bit too picky?

[larrybird]

We (and others) were getting speeds of < 2 MB/s, which is really slow
if you need to move over 30GB of files!