DEAL BREAKER : Can it Play mp3s without using iTunes?

[otIpod?]

Just wondering...

Some have said that you must partition a DATA side (for USB Mass Storage capability) and an iTunes capable MUSIC side (for mp3 playback).

Couple of questions that maybe ppl who have the iPod Shuffle can answer for me:

1) Say I have some mp3s and I don't use iTunes.
Can I place those mp3s into the MUSIC partition side of the iPod Shuffle without first loading my mp3s to iTunes and still have it play in the iPod Shuffle?

2) If I am reading what others are saying correctly, if I were to put a mp3 into the DATA partition side, it will not play on the iPod Shuffle. Is that correct?

3) Also, has Apple configured the MUSIC partition side to only be able to play music from any iTunes library or just from 1 computer's library?

TIA!

[Boilerblues]

If it works like the other iPod models then you have to add music using iTunes, it won't recognize them placed on there as data. I don't have mine yet so I can't say for sure, but it's a pretty safe bet.

[jerrodh]

The iTunes data vs. music slider does NOT partition the disk... it only defines the amount of music iTunes' Autofill button puts on the iPod, allowing you to automatically reserve some free space for data.

One partition.

Now...

1) No... it will be like any other iPod, meaning you'll have to load the music with iTunes.

2) One partition.

3) Not sure yet. If the iPod Shuffle behaves like a regular iPod in "Manual" mode, then you can load music from whatever you connect to. If it behaves like a regular iPod in "Automatic" mode, you'll get a prompt asking if you'd like to wipe your iPod and load that PC's music.

If it has its own mode selection... well... than use it how you want. :D We'll see.

[Kazaroth]

See, I understand why the HD iPods behave this way - they can run dynamic playlists and have a fast user interface. Because of this, they NEED iTunes (or similar) for loading files on to them, because a database has to be updated at the same time, to enable all of the above to work.

Since the shuffle doesn't work anything LIKE the above, there is absolutely no reason not to just have a 'Music' folder on the shuffle that you can load tracks on from anywhere, anytime. They've essentially crippled a nice element of the unit (go to a friend's house, pop a couple of tracks on there and have a listen), just for the sake of taking copyright protection to extremes. It's not as if I can't take the track home and then load it on anyway. It protects nothing but adds inconvenience. LAME!

I look forward to the day, undoubtedly very soon, that a client (one exists for regular ipods IIRC) that can run straight from the shuffle can be used to load tracks into its library. If apple wont do it, someone else will.

-J

[otIpod?]

Thanks for the all the help so far!

Maybe the word Partition was incorrectly used.
But I do think there is some sort of Music separation and Data separation going on. Perhaps a more appropriate description is Music Directory and Data Directory.

A couple of things that I still don't understand:

#1
IF the iTunes Auto-Fill slider means iTunes allots a certain amount of space for iTunes music and randomly selects music from iTunes to fill that alloted space,
AND there exists an iTunes Manual Mode (meaning iTunes lets you select which songs you want to put in to the iPod Shuffle),
THEN is it possible to have both Auto-Fill and Manual Mode in the Music Directory of the iPod Shuffle?

#2
Is the iPod Shuffle dependent on iTunes to be able to play mp3s?
Here's an example: My friend does not use iTunes. My friend's computer has mp3s that she created. I want them. I transfer them to my iPod Shuttle.
= Can I play the mp3 right away?
= Do I have to goto a comp that has iTunes to upload them to iTunes, then download them to my iPod Shuffle? Will they then play on my iPod Shuffle?
= Or do I have to got back to the computer which has the iTunes that initialized/activated my iPod Shuffle in order to make them play on my iPod Shuffle?

#3
IF there does exist a Music Directory of the iPod Shuffle, does the directory only recognize music that has been transferred to it via iTunes' Auto-Fill or Manual Mode? All other music goes into the Data Directory?

Sorry if I've confused more ppl :confused:

[pb0000]

It would be a complete deal breaker if you HAVE to use iTunes to upload mp3s into the shuffle. I want to quickly swap music in and out no matter if im at my computer with iTunes or not. Also that would suck if u needed clear some mp3s off to make room for data, and have to go and use iTunes to get rid of mp3s.

But since everyone seems to agree that there isnt a different music/data partition, I dont see how apple can prevent a user from having access to everything on the Shuffle when used as a thumb drive.

What im thinking is that they do sort of have a hidden "playlist" file on the Shuffle that holds the names of the mp3s on the Shuffle, and thats what iTunes sets up when it uploads music. I'd think they would have to do it this way since, it would be harder to have the shuffle scan through the flash memory and randomly select music files to play. So hopefully it just a text file that you can edit, and not some wierd binary file.

So if you were to manually upload music, you would have to also add an entry to this file.

But its all speculation until my Shuffle comes.

[polycarbon]

It's not speculation. You'll find all your answers through this link:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61131

Some of you were correct, some of you were wrong. Some of you will be disappointed.

[otIpod?]

polycarbon,

Thanks for the info link.

However, do those instuctions apply to the Ipod Shuffle?
Seems to me those instructions are only for the HD Ipods.

Because the Ipod Shuffle may or may not be USB Mass Storage Compliant (have not seen this mentioned anywhere), the Ipod Shuttle could be a different beast all together when transferring music/data compared to how HD Ipods transfer music/data.

[polycarbon]

whoops, I forgot to put this link as well:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300493

"When using iPod shuffle to transfer files, turn on disk mode first. If you don't, it will appear as if you have to make the target computer (the one that you're transferring files to) the owner of iPod shuffle; doing so will erase the contents on the iPod shuffle."

It might be too early to say that it will work the same as it's older iPod siblings in that respect, but this looks like it points to the shuffle behaving similarly.

[konaboy]

Yes this is a deal breaker for me too. I have hundreds of mp3s on my hard disk. I don't want to install iTunes and then import them all into iTunes just to get them onto the device.

Why oh why, can't they just implement it so it is recognized as a removable hard disk in Windows Explorer so that I can just drag and drop my mp3s...? :confused: :confused:

[supperman]

Originally posted by konaboy
Yes this is a deal breaker for me too. I have hundreds of mp3s on my hard disk. I don't want to install iTunes and then import them all into iTunes just to get them onto the device.

Why oh why, can't they just implement it so it is recognized as a removable hard disk in Windows Explorer so that I can just drag and drop my mp3s...? :confused: :confused:

Konaboy, importing an existing MP3 library into iTunes is simple and fast, even on my 867Mhz PowerBook. You just 'Add to Library', point to your directory and it's done. Just make sure that iTunes doesn't copy the songs into it's own and it will be fast.

[jhollington]

Again, I agree that this is all speculation until somebody actually gets a shuffle and tries this, however I would personally suspect that the iPod Shuffle works in exactly the same way as all other iPods. Knowing Apple, I can't see them re-engineering their entire iTunes processing just for one new device.

In addition, Apple has a long history in the iPod world of not worrying too much about what the power user wants.... Remember that the Shuffle is being targeting at the average consumer who doesn't understand MP3 players very well and just wants to carry around a handful of CDs. I think Apple almost expects that power users will be considering other flash players (or for that matter, probably already have one).

So if this is the case, then your MP3s will live in a subdirectory structure, in the same partition. While you don't technically have to use iTunes to delete an MP3 file (since the physical file is there) deleting an MP3 file manually is sure to mess up the iPod Shuffle's music database.

However, if this is the case, then I would suspect that many of the existing third-party utilities out there for iPod music management will also work with the Shuffle (since it basically works just like a smaller iPod). This would be another good reason for Apple to stay with the same music management design.

[nosedive51]

The reason all iPods and now shuffle have the music files 'hidden' is the because the music industry would drop a brick if they at all thought people could, very easily, load up a bunch of songs from person A's computer and drop them to person B's.

That's why your not able to just download songs from the iPod. Of course people in the know know how to do this and I'm sure there will be software to do the same with shuffle but Apple is never going to build it in.

[otIpod?]

nosedive51,

hmm, I understand Apple's reasoning behnd the HD Ipods not letting us natively download music from HD Ipods.

However, this Ipod Shuffle is supposed to be a USB key drive.
And I was hoping it was USB Mass Storage ("UMS") compliant too.
Though I have not seen that mentioned by Apple.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought UMS allows the USB key drive to show up as a directory on any computer without the use of software or drivers (aside from Win98). This means that moving any kind of data (music, documents, etc...) can be done from computer to USB key drive and vice versa.

Now, if Apple decided you can only transfer music via iTunes, and via iTunes only, does that mean you cannot transfer music using the UMS characteristic of most USB key drives?

Of course, I don't even know if the Ipod Shuffle is UMS compliant to begin with.

The reason I bring up UMS compliant is because there are lots of flash players that have UMS capability built in. (Examples: Creative flash players, Sandisk players, Most of the Iriver players, and even the less expensive Asian derivative flash mp3 players.) If the Ipod Shuffle does not have UMS capability, it really is going to some lengths to dictate our use of a supposed USB key drive.

[studogvetmed]

I'm pretty sure that the shuffle will be UMS compliant as you hope. The deal breaker will be that transferring music to the shuffle will only allow it to sit on the shuffle and not be played on the shuffle. To be able to play the music you will need iTunes or some other third party device.

This too is similar to the hard drive iPods where the iPod can be recognized on any computer it is formatted for natively and drag and drop whatever you want on it, even music files, without iTunes, however if you want to play those songs you'll have to load them onto the iPod with an appropriate program.

The shuffle should work the same, but I guess there is always a chance it won't.

The only thing you'll need iTunes for is actually playing the music on the shuffle, you can transport it easily with just drag and dropping to the drive.

Stuart

[dalhectar]

http://www.mediafour.com/products/xplay/

X Play should let you drag and drop Music to the Music side of an iPod. I would test it out with a iPod shuffle though to make sure it would work, but I used it with my 1G iPod pretty well. Now I use iTunes.

[konaboy]

are the reason why Apple cripples their Ipods so that iTunes is required then I would suggest they take a similar approach to iriver. On my player I can drag and drop mp3s to the player (which shows up as a removable drive) but I cannot download from the player to the computer. Perfectly acceptable, and I don't need any extra software to do it.

[mote]

Hey all,

I can't find this data vs. music slider anywhere?

Would someone mind pointing me to it?

Cheers

[engien]

Originally posted by konaboy
are the reason why Apple cripples their iPods so that iTunes is required then I would suggest they take a similar approach to iriver. On my player I can drag and drop mp3s to the player (which shows up as a removable drive) but I cannot download from the player to the computer. Perfectly acceptable, and I don't need any extra software to do it.

iriver only needs to keep it acceptable to the point of not breaking the law, apple needs to keep it acceptable to the point of satisfying all the record labels to they can sell songs on itunes.

[coelacanth]

mote,

Plug your shuffle.

Go iTunes and select your shuffle's icon on the left.

Then you should see small iPod icon at the bottom right of the iTunes main window.

Slider things is in there.

[mote]

Sorry, is this option only available for the shuffle!

[Starboard]

Originally posted by konaboy
Yes this is a deal breaker for me too. I have hundreds of mp3s on my hard disk. I don't want to install iTunes and then import them all into iTunes just to get them onto the device.

Why oh why, can't they just implement it so it is recognized as a removable hard disk in Windows Explorer so that I can just drag and drop my mp3s...? :confused: :confused:

do any other DAP allow simple drag and drop loading? Before the iPod I had a couple of other brands' players and they all require their own software to load music. In comparison to those, iTunes has really been the best thing and most intuitive that I've used.

[baggss]

Yes, I know at least the iRivers do.

Hey konaboy, why are you so against iTunes? I don't understand why this is such a huge deal for you. Are you just that lazy or something?

[ham_man]

I for one like not having to drag and drop. I find that iTunes is much better for people like myself...

-Andrew

[dcmacnut]

Originally posted by konaboy
Yes this is a deal breaker for me too. I have hundreds of mp3s on my hard disk. I don't want to install iTunes and then import them all into iTunes just to get them onto the device.

Why oh why, can't they just implement it so it is recognized as a removable hard disk in Windows Explorer so that I can just drag and drop my mp3s...? :confused: :confused: Why? No iPod on the planet has this capability. You need to use some sort of program to upload the files to the iPod, shuffle or otherwise.

On the PC, before iTunes for windows came out there was Music Match, Ephpod, and Anapod. Most people use iTunes because of the better integration with the iPod, but these third-party programs still exist. But to load songs, they access the iPod's music database to add the files. You, as a user, cannot manually load songs on the shuffle to listen to on the shuffle using Windows explorer. That ability has never existed, so why should the shuffle be any different? Given time, I'm sure these third party apps will be upgraded providing a simple, non-iTunes environment for people to load song.

With respect to your later comments about iRiver players being a simple "drag and drop" load system, that's because iRiver is just a hardware component. For iPods it is a hardware/software set up. You use the iPod and iTunes to manage your music. It's the whole package. I doubt there's any copyright reasons for it, since iPod's have never been a "drag and drop through Explorer" device, even before the Music Store was created. I do think Apple did it this way for a reason, such as to prevent the iPod from becoming an automating pirating device, but I don't think the record companies demanded it. Then again I'm not an Apple executive.

As far as the iPod being crippled, it's not. You can access the music files through explorer by showing hidden files (iPod_Control/Music is where they are located) and copy them to your hard drive. You just can't manipulate the songs in those folders because everything calls back to the database. Makes for quicker loading and faster searching of files on the iPod.

As others have said -- if you are a power user who wants 100% control over the tiniest details of your mp3 player and music management, then the iPod and iTunes are not for you. The fact that 10 million people in the world have purchased iPods to date proves that level of control just isn't that important to the majority of mp3 users out there.

Chris

[cmoney]

Ok, I have one.

The Shuffle is linked to one computer. You can't copy songs to it from more than one computer. This is different behavior than hard drive iPods. Who knows why Apple did this, but I hope it's not a future trend. I've tested it with my

Even though the shuffle will not load up in iTunes on another computer, as long as you've already enabled disk mode it will still show up as a hard drive and mounts just like one.

I can already see some confusion coming in the future. Every time you plug your shuffle into another computer, even if you're intending to use it as a thumb drive and nothing more, it'll still pop up iTunes and give that warning message. How long before someone accidently clicks on ok and erases their friend's music collection!

[dcmacnut]

Originally posted by cmoney
Ok, I have one.

The Shuffle is linked to one computer. You can't copy songs to it from more than one computer. This is different behavior than hard drive iPods. Who knows why Apple did this, but I hope it's not a future trend. I've tested it with my

Even though the shuffle will not load up in iTunes on another computer, as long as you've already enabled disk mode it will still show up as a hard drive and mounts just like one.

I can already see some confusion coming in the future. Every time you plug your shuffle into another computer, even if you're intending to use it as a thumb drive and nothing more, it'll still pop up iTunes and give that warning message. How long before someone accidently clicks on ok and erases their friend's music collection!
Do you have the shuffle set to Manual or Autofill? I've connected my iPod mini on manual to four different computers, and loaded songs onto it from each one, and never get an error message. My regular iPod, set to Autosync, will give me an error message when I connect to something other than its "host" computer.

I'm just curious about the shuffle, because I can understand getting an error message when it's set to Autofill, and it not showing up in iTunes but on the hard drive. It's a warning to make sure you don't accidentally erase it. However, I would be surprised if you'd get the same error message with a shuffle set to manual, because it's not "set" to anything automatically. As you say, a shuffle that did that (on manual) would be different than any other iPod on the market, and I just don't see that being the case.

[cmoney]

The shuffle is a different beast. These are the options that show in iTunes now.

Notice no more "manual" mode vs. autosync mode. While the "Keep this iPod in the source list" option seems to be analogous and behaves similarly, checking/unchecking that option doesn't change the behavior when connecting to an unlinked computer.

One thing I did notice, when I plugged the iPod into my PC, it showed the iPodControl folder in Explorer. So you could copy songs to your computer to your heart's content. (Not sure if HD iPods work this way, I've never plugged one into my PC.)

[dcmacnut]

Originally posted by cmoney
The shuffle is a different beast. These are the options that show in iTunes now.

Notice no more "manual" mode vs. autosync mode. While the "Keep this iPod in the source list" option seems to be analogous and behaves similarly, checking/unchecking that option doesn't change the behavior when connecting to an unlinked computer.

One thing I did notice, when I plugged the iPod into my PC, it showed the iPodControl folder in Explorer. So you could copy songs to your computer to your heart's content. (Not sure if HD iPods work this way, I've never plugged one into my PC.)
The iPodControl folder exists on the HD iPods, but you need to have "show hidden files and folders" enabled to see it in Explorer. Yes, you can copy songs directly out of this folder to a new computer, but there is no simple organization of files, just a mess of folders and file names, so finding a specific song is hard.

Thanks for the other information. I'm glad someone who actuallly owns a shuffle provide some real world experience, rather than most of the other "speculations" that have been going around. I admit I'm guilty of it too, since my views were based on my wide experience will all other iPods.

I was aware that there was no specific "manual" setting in the preferences. But since Apple says on it's main site that you can "turn Autofill off and manually select the songs you want to tote on your iPod shuffle" leads me to assume that "manual" might be the default setting, since no one is likely to have a music library small enough to fit on the shuffle. That way you can drag songs to the shuffle out of the box yourself, or use Autofill load it up. Again, I defer to your experiences with the shuffle. But let me see if I get this straight, so I understand things better in case other questions come up. I don't have a shuffle, but still want to be helpful to my fellow loungers.

Basically, what you are saying is that even with Autofill "turned off" and "disk use enabled," the iPod shuffle will not appear in the source window of iTunes on anything but it's main computer? Do you get some sort of pop up window that says "this iPod is connected to different computer" when plugging it in? Are you able to access the iPod preferences from that computers iTunes?

I have no idea why Apple would have set it that way. It makes no sense to limit sharing of music files (legally) this way, especially on a small disk, when you can do it on a much, much larger scale with the bigger iPods. did you see that article posted earlier in the thread about disk use with the shuffle, that "disk use" must be checked before you can use it to transfer files, otherwise the shuffle will be erased on connecting to the new computer.

Sorry for the 20 questions. I really am just curious.

Chris

[cmoney]

Originally posted by dcmacnut
Basically, what you are saying is that even with Autofill "turned off" and "disk use enabled," the iPod shuffle will not appear in the source window of iTunes on anything but it's main computer? Do you get some sort of pop up window that says "this iPod is connected to different computer" when plugging it in? Are you able to access the iPod preferences from that computers iTunes?

I have no idea why Apple would have set it that way. It makes no sense to limit sharing of music files (legally) this way, especially on a small disk, when you can do it on a much, much larger scale with the bigger iPods. did you see that article posted earlier in the thread about disk use with the shuffle, that "disk use" must be checked before you can use it to transfer files, otherwise the shuffle will be erased on connecting to the new computer.

Correct, I just tried it out to make sure. Autofill is actually not in play here. Autofill doesn't do anything until you actually click on the Autofill button. And once you do, all it does is select songs to put on the shuffle. There are various options to determine which songs it puts on but otherwise, there's really nothing automatic about it.

It's the "Keep this iPod in Source List" option that would presumably make a difference. This is similar to Autosyncing an HD iPod to specific playlists. Except in this case, you still have the option to run Autofill, or you can remove and add songs to the playlist manually, while the shuffle is not connected. Once you connect the shuffle again, it automatically updates it with the changes that you made to the playlist.

No matter whether this option is on or off, the reaction when plugging a shuffle into an unlinked computer is that iTunes pops up a dialog asking you if you want to link it to the current computer and delete the songs. It won't even show you the iPod or prefs if you click no. With disk mode on of course, it will still mount like a regular desktop and you can use it that way just fine.

Oh, as for Windows, I just remembered I changed my setup to always show hidden folders, which is why it was popping up on my system automatically.

[Ichijoe]

I think some of you People out there are blowing this a bit out of perportion. I fairly sure that Windows Explorer will see this Device as x:\ and you can use the Shuffle as a Mass Storage Device. Some Mass with only 512MB to 1Gb though. Now the reall question is does the shuffle have a iTunesDB File like it's bigger & older siblings? If it does then your screwed go get a 'Plays For Sure' USB Stick then and stop whining! Otherwise just use iTunes. Why does everyone hate iTunes so much anyways?!?!

[baggss]

Originally posted by Ichijoe
I fairly sure that Windows Explorer will see this Device as x:\ and you can use the Shuffle as a Mass Storage Device. Some Mass with only 512MB to 1Gb though.

Are regular USB flash drives considered "mass" storage or just "portable" storage..

[ham_man]

Flashdrives are considered Mass Storage. A 64 mb thumdrive is treated the same as a1 tb external hard drive...

-Andrew

[dragonflyr]

can someone please answer this simply....

1- Does the iPod show up as a drive letter in windows explorer (XP)??? (you know, like a usb flash drive, camera, etcc)

and

2- Can you simply copy and paste a mp3 to the iPod??


thanks!


( or does apple want to force proprietary software down our throats?? and, if thats the case, I will buy some other player that just shows up as a drive and a can copy files to it SIMPLY in explorer. )

[zip22]

1 - yes, the shuffle will show up as a drive when you enable disk useage

2 - no you cannot copy and paste mp3s into the ipod.