What should I consider?

[aeromusek]

Hello everyone! I just got my iPod last week, and I'm loving it to death :D. But I've been thinking that it doesn't really make sense to have such an awesome player, with earbuds that suck (or so I've heard).

I found out (today) that the old 'junky' pair of 'phones I had sitting around is actually a set of Grado SR 60 s. I didn't realize they were really good headphones until this afternoon, but since I've been looking around to see what would be a good upgrade, I thought I should try them out; since they are supposed to be about the best quality available under about $150.
Now here's my problem: I've read that the Grados are supposed to be quite a lot louder than the iPod stock earbuds, but the pair I have isn't. Also I can't hear that much difference between the stock set and the SR 60 s. What I am wondering is are the Grados somehow defective (that would explain why I was given them second hand many years ago), or am I just unable to hear the difference?

However, even if the Grados are working correctly, they're not what I'm really looking for: I want something that will keep out more external noise than the iPod 'phones do, and from what I've read, if I want something portable, that means I need one of the in-canal earbud models. I listen to a lot of classical music, so something like the Sony EX71 probably isn't what I'm looking for (too much bass; not enough definition). I read that the Apple In-Ears have good overall quality, but are they really worth a $40 upgrade? I'd really like to consider an pair of Shures or Etymotics, but having just spent over $200 on the iPod, I can't justify a lot of money on headphones right now, unless they really are mind-blowingly great, and will last me for many years.
But I'm concerned that if the old Grado pair is in good working condition and I still can't hear the difference, then will I actually notice anything by upgrading to some higher quality earbud?

[kauffee]

The SR60 shouldn't be louder than the stock buds at equal volume settings, so whoever told you that is wrong. I doubt your Grados are defective, since if they were, you'd probably hear artifacting, massive distortion, or buzzing.

I've said this in threads and I'm convinced it's true... you have to train your ears to be able to tell the difference in sound, especially when moving to a more "audiophile" sound. Throw on a pair of Bose TriPorts, with all that warmth, and you hear a big difference immediately from the stock buds. But throw on a pair of Grados and you might not. The Grados are a much more accurate sound, but your ears don't know how to appreciate it at first. Listen exclusively for 2 weeks, then try going back to the stock buds. You won't believe the difference.

Personally, I love Grados, but a lot of people think Sennheiser's sound signature is better suited for classical, while Grado is a better rock phone. I'm not at all sure I agree with this, but I think I understand where they're coming from.

Of course, the Grados are open-air and therefore provide no isolation. For canalphones, given your preference for classical music, I wouldn't buy any phone lower than the Ety ER6. So forget about EX71, Apple in-ear, and Shure E2. They won't give you what you want. The first canalphone you should consider is the Ety ER6. Then look at the Shure E3 and the Ety ER4P, as well. It's worth the money in the end. There are plenty of comparisons of these over at head-fi.

The Senn PXC250 is another way to go, since that has active noise cancellation circuitry. A bit expensive, though. Personally, I'd go with the E3 over the PXC250 considering they're the same price.

The only other idea I have is the Sony D66 "Eggo." It's around $75 I think, and it's a closed headphone, so it will block a good deal of sound. I haven't heard it, but it's supposedly pretty accurate and without an overly boomy bass. Also, it's small enough that you can use it when you're out and about without any trouble.

[aeromusek]

Great, I was really hoping you'd reply, after seeing some of your other posts! :)

I'd prefer not get into active noise cancellation. I know it works great for people like pilots, but I'd honestly rather not mess with it.
I don't listen exclusively to classical music, actually although about half my library is classical, I only listen to it about a quarter of the time, so I don't want something that's only going to work for classical stuff. I realize that the Etymotics and Shures are not going to be like this, but just incase anyone else decided to recommend a "classical-only" phone.
I also read that the Etymotics are more 'picky' than the Shures, ie they show you every little mistake in the compression, and are quite 'sterile'. Would a comparison like this be out of order?

Shure E3 - TriPort
Etymotic ER-6/ER-4 - Grado

I haven't actually listened to a TriPort, by the way.
I am certain that there is no way I could buy the ER-4, so based on your info, it looks like either the Shure E3 or the Etymotic ER-6. From what I've read, it seems like the E3 is sort of a level above the ER-6, is that correct?

Thanks!

[thedodgyguy]

The E3c's will probably be the best bet. Takes some fiddling about with tips, but more comfortable and more tractable than the Etys, if not as 'revealing'. The Eggos do not isolate so are probably out for your use.

[aeromusek]

Yes, I'm leaning toward the E3c s, I just need to think and see if I could justify paying that much for them

[kauffee]

I was under the impression that the Eggos gave some degree of isolations... guess I was wrong.

aero:
You are correct in that the Etys are extremely "picky" and tend to accentuate faults in compression. I also felt they were sterile and somewhat metallic sounding, but that's a subjective opinion.

It's definitely not fair to compare the E3c with the TriPorts. They are completely different sounding. The Bose are extremely warm and very muddy with pretty big bass. I really hate their sound.

I'd say the Etys are more like Grados than E3s are, but it's really hard to compare a canalphone to an open-air headphone.

I think the E3s will work well for you.

[aeromusek]

Thanks :). Even listening to the Grados for an hour or so this afternoon, they are already sounding miles better than the iBuds.
If the Etys are 'sterile' and picky, what would the Shures be like (basically)?

[thedodgyguy]

Guess so kauffee... There's no substitute for ownership when making recommendations as opposed to reading other people's Head-Fi posts. :p I like the Eggos, they have a really smooth sound but in terms of portability they're not that handy, because they're not quite pocket size yet they don't perch on your shoulders properly... if the cups go out of alignment while so perched, they will automatically strangle you! For your info, the Eggos have a sound-passing membrane installed behind the 'dot' that you'll see on them, which is specifically designed to let sound in and not let sound out. There is some isolation like any headphone, but not what you would expect with a closed phone... I'd say the isolation is something like a Sennheiser HD497 (an open phone which is not over-open in use)


The E3c are actually more like Grados than the ER-4P, in that they're more aggressive in their sound. If you had to go and find a 'house sound' equivalent of the Etys in general, it would be the upper-end Sennheisers.


The E3c has an accentuated midrange (more than Grados, actually) which with some of the tips can sound slightly more nasal than optimal at first. Play around for the optimal fitting/sounding tip for your ear and get acclimatised to the sound however and then you start looking at it from the E3c point of view, where you get far more detail than you bargained for, a non-stressful treble (there's enough, but not too much) and a fairly strong bass for a canalphone (somewhere along the lines of the SR60/80, mabe a tiny bit less).

[kauffee]

I dunno, to my ears the ER4P has a much more Grado-like sound than the E3c.

I don't see what the big deal is about suggesting someone look into a phone that I haven't listened to. The poster asked what models he should be considering, and based on what I'd read about that phone, I suggested he look into it. He can then go read some first-hand opinions. That's the idea, isn't it?

[aeromusek]

Thanks for the info everyone, I'll look into them! :)

[zachary80]

Originally posted by kauffee
I don't see what the big deal is about suggesting someone look into a phone that I haven't listened to. The poster asked what models he should be considering, and based on what I'd read about that phone, I suggested he look into it. He can then go read some first-hand opinions. That's the idea, isn't it?

I agree with you, as long as you are clear that you have not heard the 'phones, and give a good place for looking up more information based on hands-on opinions.

[dmt1]

Ok, I'd give you a slightly different opinion, although I pretty much agree with Kaufee on everything else....

If I were you, I'd go with the Ety 4P's. Both the E3's and Ety's are great, but if I had my choice, I'd take the Ety's. They'll definitely be better for classical (and jazz). And if you use the Latin EQ, it takes the edge off the highs, and adds just a touch of bass without distortion--meaning they sound very good for rock. The Latin EQ setting is subtle, but really useful. I've tried the E3's, although only briefly, and I prefer the ety sound signature--more detail, clarity and accuracy. The E3's bass is more prominent, and I would agree that the E3's are warmer than the ety's, but at the expense of clarity--the E3's are bit muddy compared to the Ety's.


Both the E3's and Ety's are great phones; you can't go wrong with either one--it's really a personal preference.


What I really want to try are the Shure E5's....

The Grado comparison is a difficult one. The Ety's have more detail and clarity than the SR 60-s (which I also own and love), but not as much bass as the Grado's. The E3's have comparable bass to the Grado's, but not quite the clarity or detail. At least that's my perception. But if I had to pick, I'd say the Ety's are closer to the Grado's than the E3's, but they're by no means identical.

[thedodgyguy]

Originally posted by kauffee
I don't see what the big deal is about suggesting someone look into a phone that I haven't listened to. The poster asked what models he should be considering, and based on what I'd read about that phone, I suggested he look into it. He can then go read some first-hand opinions. That's the idea, isn't it?


Not if he uses your post as the basis for a purchase, trusting your opinion. By being authoritative and posting a lot, other people who don't know may look to you as the source of accurate info, in which case you've mislead them. There are also a lot of 're-typers' (people who read posts and then type it elsewhere, re-branding it as their own post effectively speaking, it happens all the time from my posts on Head-Fi) and such re-typings have a tendency to build up into a pyramid of recommendations. In some cases such re-typers will pile in to a post saying 'get x', the information on which may actually have come from only one or two of genuine posts on Head-Fi, thereby skewing the recommendation in favour of a piece of equipment that may not deserve it.


I think before you actually say 'look at x' in an authoritative manner you should have at least heard it first... or say "I haven't heard it at all but x might be a good choice".


It's not a specific go at you, but a general point I have to make.

[aeromusek]

I didn't take his recommendation that seriously, and I saw his disclaimer about not having used them, so don't worry too much :).

dmt1: I'm not too worried about the 'boomy bass', I like it to sound real, not like someone put too many subwoofers in their sound system, like the EX71 supposedly does. I'd love to get the ER-4s, but they are completely out as far as price goes; there is no way I could even consider them. How do the ER-6s compare, in your opinion?
As it is, I'll probably have to shop around and see if I can get the E3s at a good price used (like my iPod). [shameless plug]So if anyone feels like selling a used pair of either the E3, ER-6, or ER-4...[/shameless plug]

PS, kauffee, I'm getting there: I had to put in the iBuds this morning because I didn't want the bleed-over of the Grados, and I instantaneously heard the difference :)

[thedodgyguy]

Do you know, I totally failed to see that bit about not having heard them. I stand completely corrected. Sorry about that. Must be going blind in my old age... (buries head in embarrasement)


If it helps a few of us will undoubtedly comparing the E3c, ER-4P and the SR80 at a meet this weekend. I'm sure you'll find some opinions on that posted at Head-Fi next week.

[aeromusek]

Ok, thanks!

BTW, I really like it when someone just owns up and says they were wrong; you just went up a couple notches in my regard :)

[dmt1]

You can get the E4's, (and you'll want the E4P's, not the E4S), for just over $200.00--check the news section here, Dennis provided a link.

I haven't tried the ER6's (at headfi it seemed like a significant number of folks who bought the ER6's upgraded to the ER4's, so I figured I'd just skip that step), so I can't help you there, but if the price of the Shure E3's isn't unreasonable to you, I don't think you'd go wrong with those. I just prefer the 4P's, but that's my personal taste. But if you twisted my arm and made me chose between the ER6's and the E3's, having only heard the E3's, I would go with those.

[kauffee]

Hey no problem dodgyguy. Yeah I suppose that explains the misunderstanding... thanks :)

[zachary80]

aeromusek, is there any way for you to try before you buy? I personally have tried the er4ps, and while they sounded great, they felt intolerable to me. Local testing would be best, but places like www.headphone.com that offer 30 day returns would be almost as good. Another way, which is good for the er4p/s, would be to buy some er20's:
http://etymotic.com/ephp/er20.asp
In addition to knowing/getting used to the fit, you also have some earplugs great for concerts.

[aeromusek]

Yes, actually, there is somewhere fairly near where my Dad works that I can try the Shures. Unfortunately the nearest place for the Etys is about 60 miles away, not somewhere I can get either of my parents to drive to for just that.
I don't think it really matters though, as I'm leaning toward the Shures anyway, particularly since I've heard that they are more robust than the Etymotics and I would like something that I don't have to treat with kid gloves :)

[aeromusek]

Hi guys!
I've been doing some more reading over on Head-fi, and it seems like most people consider the ER-6 to be a better headphone for classical music than the E3 (the only two I'm really looking at now). What do you think? How does the ER-6 sound for things like Enya music? Or ABBA? I'm kinda looking more to the Etymotic right now especially because I can get them for about $90 off eBay, vs about $150 (cheapest I've seen) for the E3.
The E3 would be nice because it's more sturdily built, and *overall* it might be a better headphone for the things I usually listen to, but it is so much more expensive, and I don't think I can spend more than $100 right now.
I think what I'm really asking is
1) does anybody else have personal experience with both of these?
2) what's the 'going price' on the E3? Is it possible to pick up a pair for ~ $100?

Thanks! :)

[aeromusek]

Ok, another major problem: my Dad just essentially forbade me to get any in-canal earbuds because he a) thinks they're unsafe (can't hear), and b) thinks the iBuds are very good.
What can I tell him? Do the E3/ER-6s really block out that much more than foam earplugs? Are they really a lot better than the stock Apple earbuds?

Thanks!

[earful]

i just received a pair of earbuds that is new this month on audiocubes.com. they're $35 (but shipping is about $15): panasonic rp-hj535. i've only been listening to them a few hours. bass seems a little bit bloated for my taste; on the other hand, with radio shack foamies added, they seem to handle horowitz playing kinderszenen beautifully, montserrat caballe singing casta diva came across very well, and neil young ("round and round" and "tell me why," which i always use for checking out buds because of the different backup voices) sounds quite good. for latin jazz - jobim and caetano veloso - also sound pretty good. these buds are very light weight, come with a short cord and they're the "neck chain" style - which not everyone likes.

for purposes of comparison: other "buds" i own: aiwa hpsc21 (new and haven't really listened to them yet), sharp hd-md33 (in-ear style, good if you are doing other things and unable to concentrate on the music, but basically thin on treble), audio-technica cm5 (not recommended), audio-technica cm7 (aluminum, not titanium, and excellent sound quality) and shure e5 (no additional comment necessary).

i'm no audiophile, but i suppose the panasonics would fall into the "musical" rather than "analytical" category for buds, which is fine for being out and about. might be worth a look for your purposes.