Opinions sought on MP3 creating & AAC file sizes.

[djjonnyt]

Hey gang, new guy here looking for opinions on MP3 creation & AAC file sizes.

First let me give you some background. I have seven years experience working with WAV files and about four years experience working with MP3 files. All of my music editing and CD burning is done with WAV files, using S.A.W. for editing and Roxio Easy CD Creator for burning. I just got Roxio version 9 two months ago and now version 10 is out. I prefer to rip and burn slow, after I defrag, but those choices seem to be going away.

And yes, based on my user name, I really am a part-time professional DJ working weddings and what have you... but I still use CD's. I currently have around 18,000 songs on CD in my DJ show alone, not counting my personal collection. Some cassette tapes too - yeah I know, I'm old. Don't even get me started on albums. Now I do NOT what my entire music collection on my computer nor on my iPod... just the best of the best from all gendres.

The idea of having to go through iTunes to get stuff on my iPod kind of annoys me... but from what I've read and heard from others, it's pretty cool. But I still have to rip to MP3 onto my computer, upload to iTunes and then download to my iPod right?

All my MP3 file use has been at maximum bit rate of 320, as quality is always an issue for me and my various sound systems. But I only had about 1500 MP3 files on my old Dell laptop and on my old iRiver H10 20G MP3 Player. Both my old computer and old MP3 player are now dead. But don't feel sad for me! I just got an HP laptop (XP Media Edition) with a HUGE hard drive of 240G. I also just got my first Apple product ever, the newly released iPod Classic 160G. I have not yet downloaded iTunes nor have any songs on my HP or iPod.

I have been doing a lot of reading on this forum and have learned that:

1) AAC files are superior to MP3 files, particularly at lower bit rates.

2) The program used to rip CD tracks and turn them into MP3 tracks on your computer does matter... not just the bit rate used.

Here's what I want to do. I want a lot of MP3 files on my computer as AAC files typically only work with iPod, as far as I know. Now if there is a program that would allow me to play AAC files on my computer, that would be good information to know. And maybe after a while I won't even care what's on my computer as I will only use my iPod. In the past I have used Ultra Player and Windows Media Player to play MP3 files off of my computer into some sort of sound system. And I have typically used Roxio or SoundStream, sometimes Easy MP3 to create MP3 files.

So one of my questions that I am seeking opinions on is: What program do you recommend to create MP3 files with? And should I continue doing so at 320 with your program of choice?

My other question that I am seeking opinions on is: What size of AAC files should I use on my iPod?

From what I have read, a bit rate of 192 in AAC is equal to the original CD. Storage space is not the issue on my computer nor on my iPod, so it's strictly about quality.

Please advise!

Thanx,

DJ Jonny T - It's a nick name and I didn't pick it, but it's kinda stuck, and it's better then say... "Stinky".

[kornchild2002]

Welcome to iLounge. You don't have to go through iTunes but the transition to that software is pretty seamless. So if you want to use iTunes, then you must rip your audio CDs, put them in iTunes, then copy them over to your iPod.

Just be careful about AAC being superior to mp3. AAC is superior to the mp3 format when you use bitrates of 96kbps and below. However, at 128kbps VBR, the Nero/iTunes AAC encoders have about the same quality as the Lame mp3 encoder. So the quality is not that advanced yet. The Lame mp3 encoder doesn't have much more room for quality improvement though as they are almost basically at the limits of the mp3 format. The AAC format is still relatively new and has lots of room for improvement. So that is just the current situation. Who knows 2-3 years from now.

You are correct about the ripping program playing an important role.

iTunes, QuickTime, Winamp, foobar2000, Windows Media Player (with some work), Real Player, and the Zune software will all play AAC audio files along with your iPod. I think Roxio is even compatible with AAC audio files, I know that Nero is.

I recommend that you simply stick with using the mp3 format as it is still more universal than the AAC audio format. I use the AAC audio format simply because my iPod classic, iPod shuffle, Microsoft Zune, Xbox 360, PDA, and car CD deck all support AAC files. It sounds like you are just now starting to realize about the AAC audio format (or just starting to look at it) so you might not have very many devices that play it. When you are looking at using bitrates above 192kbps, the differences between the AAC and mp3 formats are slim-to-none. That is why I suggest that you rip your audio CDs using one of two programs: EAC or dbpoweramp. Both will securely rip a audio CD so you shouldn't hear any skips, bleeps, or anything else that is heard whenever you rip a audio CD that has a scratch or dust on it. You can setup both programs to use the Lame mp3 enocder. If you are looking for quality and don't care about space, then I suggest you use either 320kbps CBR or -V 0 --vbr-new. -V 0 will produce VBR mp3 at around 250kbps. Either one should provide you with the quality you need.

I suggest using those high bitrates simply because you don't want someone coming up to you complaining about the audio quality of your music. That is the worst thing that can happen to a DJ in the digital age. Even though you and your audience may not technically be able to hear a difference, it is worth using as you are ensuring that they will be pleased with the audio quality.

[djjonnyt]

Kornchild -

Thank you for your post. I was hoping that you would respond and you did not disappoint.
I have read many of your posts on this topic and respect your opinion. I do want to clarify a few things, so that they are clear in my mind.

1) With the correct program, like EAC or DB PowerAmp, couldn't I rip to an AAC file onto my computer, and use a program like Winamp to play AAC files on my computer when I choose to? That way I have AAC files on both my computer and my iPod... much like before where I had MP3 files on my computer and my iRiver. One sort of backed up the other. If I'm going to do something different, now is the time with the new and unloaded laptop and iPod.

And just to be clear: In the DJ show, I still use CD's with WAV files, not MP3 files. That may change in the future, but not immediately. All my 'new' music comes the traditional wav on CD way, and it's the format I have been using for a number of years in the process of getting rid of all my albums & 45's, and now with trying to get rid of all my cassette tapes. Hey I'm down to just six cases of tapes! Now some of those WAV files were created with MP3 files, and some with lesser quality then I would like. Plus I have found more then my share of bad MP3 files. But I always converted them to WAV and then burned, so they work in any CD player.

I decided to go with iPod for several reasons, like being able to use SoundCheck and the massive storage size.

As far as playing my former MP3 player, and the way I see myself using my new iPod. In my '99 Caddy I actually use a cassette adapter since it has both CD & cassette capabilities... and was plenty happy with the quality. The FM transmitter I had I did not like, as it was worse then regular FM radio.

Around the house or at other friends homes, the club I belong to, and just occassionally for one song in the DJ show I would use the stereo mini to dual RCA cable to plug in somewhere... Or with my Sony Xplode Boombox - a stereo mini to stereo mini since it has a line in jack. I anticipate that I will use my computer less and iPod more, but I could be wrong.

IF I have AAC files on my computer, and need to convert them to WAV, is that going to be a problem?

[kornchild2002]

1. Yes, you are correct. The only thing is that you must use the Nero AAC audio encoder when ripping with EAC or dbpoweramp. That isn't a bad thing at all as I use the Nero AAC audio encoder. In recent tests, it has been shown to be on par with the iTunes AAC audio encoder. You can use the iTunes AAC encoder with EAC but it is a pain as not all track ID information is transfered over. It is just best to stick with Nero. There are many, many programs that can playback these AAC audio files. You can use Winamp, foobar2000, Windows Media Player, iTunes, QuickTime, etc. So if you are tied to Winamp and like its interface then yes, they will work. On a side note I should say that iTunes supports the playback of AAC files gaplessly. This means that you can listen to one album like Pink Floyd - The Dark Side Of The Moon without any hiccups. I don't know if that is important to you and I don't know if Winamp supports it. Just a thought.

I used to do a little DJ'ing in the past and I never really used my iPod. I had my iPod there just in case but I never really used it. That was way back in around 2003 whenever the 3G iPod was topped out at 40GB of space. Anyway, I had my music collection on a different notebook back then with a 40GB hard drive as well. I used my notebook a lot simply because it had a much larger screen. On top of that, my notebook had a digital optical audio output which would make life easier. I could just plug that into my receiver and go from there. I used to compress my music using the old --alt-preset standard with Lame 3.90.3 and it would produce some pretty high quality files at around 190kbps VBR. So I used mp3s for my DJing purposes. I remember I did a gig at my hometown's country club and the person told me that they had never heard such high quality music coming from a computer. So even back then, lossy music was able to do more than enough.

I recently (2005) did another small gig at the same country club. I brought my new notebook and hooked up my external hard drive to it. I had Apple lossless files on that drive. I then used iTunes to playback everything. They had wi-fi and I was even taking requests as to which songs people wanted me to play. If they had the CD then I would rip it right there on the spot. If they didn't then I would go online and download the song off of the iTunes Store. Even back then, the 128kbps AAC files would sound pretty good through the system.

Anyway, that just gives you an idea of how I did things. Everyone has their own system though but hopefully it gave you some insight.

As for converting AAC files to WAV, you won't have any problems. iTunes can do this for you along with many other programs.

[djjonnyt]

I'm a little confused when you say I must use the Nero audio encoder when I use the EAC or DBPowerAmp to rip CD tracks to AAC files on my computer. Is this a plug-in to EAC/DBPowerAmp or something I use after the rip to get the info or what?

Sorry to be asking what I'm sure appears to be stupid questions. But I've used a limited number of programs without really exploring others. Now that I'm looking at using AAC files instead of MP3 files, I'm wanting to figure out what to use, how to use it, and go to work at it.

Obviously I want track information to be automatically included if at all possible, so I don't have to go in there and do it myself, one by one. One of the more recent programs I was using checks that kind of info and puts it in there for you... but even that isn't always 100% correct.... and way too damn many genres. So I 'was' in the process of simplifying the genres to a much shorter list, so I could play by genre if I wanted to. That way I keep those 'questionable' songs from popping up at the wrong time in random play... if you know what I mean.

And yes, as gapless as possible. Also some of the MP3 files that I had ripped previously cut off at the end, since there was no dead space after the cold finish of the song. That too really annoys me. While many burning programs allow one to select how fast or slow one burns a CD, I have yet to find one that allows me to select how fast or slow it rips. It sounds like (no pun intended) that EAC or DBPowerAmp will not do that to the end of my files.

I have never done a paying DJ gig with my computer or MP3 player, only non-paying jobs like a friends birthday party or new years eve party with a very simple sound set up without the huge light show. My fear has always been, what if it crashes.

If your whole music library is on computer or iPod and 'IT DOESN'T WORK'... the show is over. Where as with discs, the worse that can happen is a particular song won't play for some strange reason... since I carry a back-up CD player, mixer, microphone, amp (I use 4 normally in bridge mode since I run two Peavey SP118 subs and two Peavey SP3 three way speakers). The mixer has an EQ so if my Behringer EQ doesn't work, I can bypass it. If my BBE 2-way crossover doesn't work, I can by pass it if necessary. If one speaker goes out I still have the other. Sometimes I even carry two small Peavey PR10 - 2 ways. And while having everything on some sort of harddrive device would save me from having to carry 4 CD cases around plus my two notebooks with the music library printed off of Access.... it really wouldn't make much difference, since I still have to have my mixer, EQ, crossover, poweramps, speakers, subs & light show.

Anyway, enough about the DJ stuff. I'm just trying to get a better grip on what else is out there and how best to use it.

So EAC or DBPowerAmp with Nero (somehow) to rip CD tracks to AAC files at 320 on the computer. Upload to iTunes and then download to my iPod, also at 320.

But let me know about how I would use Nero in conjunction with EAC or DBPowerAmp please.

THANX!

[kornchild2002]

Don't worry about the questions. Everyone is new to something at some point in their life, it is just nice to see people take the extra step to learn about something. Programs like foobar2000, EAC, and dbpoweramp are just programs. They can playback audio and rip CDs in the WAV format, that is it. You then download extra audio encoders. There are many different encoders that will work with EAC and dbpoweramp such as Nero AAC, Lame mp3, FhG mp3, FAAC, FLAC, etc. You download these encoders and tell the program to use them. So whenever you rip a CD with either EAC or dbpoweramp, they rip it to your hard drive in a lossless format then tell the encoder to compress the file using certain settings.

The iTunes AAC encoder cannot be easily used with either program but both have full support for the Nero AAC encoder. It is free and provides the same quality as the iTunes AAC enocoder. Actually, at hydrogenaudio, many users found that the Nero AAC enocder produces better quality in VBR mode than the iTunes AAC encoder. Nero AAC is pretty similar to Lame mp3 in that you pick different VBR quality levels.

Both EAC and dbpoweramp can automatically retrieve CD information and add it to your compressed tracks for you. So you won't have to type in any information unless the CD isn't in the online database (most of them are). As before, they may not be 100% correct or be to your liking. These programs use a free online database. dbpoweramp has the option to use another database but you have to pay a monthly fee for access to the database, not really worth it.

Gapless all depends on the program that you use to playback your music. The AAC format itself isn't gapless but the Lame mp3 encoder is. However, a program like iTunes can go in there and read the songs themselves to determine the gapless data. I think foobar2000 can also play AAC files gaplessly. You just have to use the correct program for music playback.

You have the option of setting how fast a CD is ripped in dbpoweramp and EAC but they shouldn't cut off your music like that. When you rip with either program, use the Nero AAC encoder, and use iTunes for playback, you won't even notice that cutoff as one song will flow seamlessly to the next.

You will have an easier time setting up the Nero AAC audio encoder with dbpoweramp than with EAC. EAC will require quite a bit of initial setup. It is fine once you get up and going but that whole initial process can be a little daunting at first. I know I had trouble setting up EAC with Nero AAC the first time I did it. With dbpoweramp, they give you exact instructions on how to set everything up so they make it pretty easy for you. Then again, EAC is free and dbpoweramp costs money. You can check out dbpoweramp's website (www.dbpoweramp.com) for more information and check out hydrogenaudio (www.hydrogenaudio.org) for more information about EAC and Nero.

[djjonnyt]

Any idea how these programs compare to the latest Roxio versions 9 and now 10? I just bought Roxio 9 a while back and have used it a little bit. There one has the choice of ripping to WAV or MP3... maybe even AAC, I don't recall. One also has the choice as to what size you want the MP3 file to be. And of course, burn CD's too. I do know that one cannot select the rip rate and the slowest burn rate is 10x. I don't recall having any problems, but if there's better for AAC then that's where I want to go.

But the simpler the better. I don't want to have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get to the final result. I need AAC files on the computer and my iPod. And I need to be able to take an AAC file and convert it to WAV to be able to burn to a CD for the DJ show or creating mix CD's.

Which DBPowerAmp product do you have... just the Music Converter or do you use others? Also, what is the price of DBPowerAmp? I'm on that link and while there's lots of information there and a link to download the trial version, there is no information on price.

[kornchild2002]

I have the Music Converter, that is all you need. In order to get accurate rips, you will have to pay $18 for dbpoweramp. You can find the pricing information on their registration web page here (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc-power-register.htm). dbpoweramp will probably be the simplest for you to use.

I am not sure about Roxio products as I haven't used them in quite a bit of time. I just don't trust Roxio after I had an incident with their CD burning application. I was burning a audio CD from a bunch of WAV files. I set Roxio to burn at 2X (the slowest speed). I then had all these skipping issues on the CD. I thought it was because I used a crappy brand CD-R disc. So I tried an expensive Sony disc. Same thing happened. I downloaded Nero (it was Nero 5 back then) and it worked flawlessly. Ever since then, I just haven't trusted Roxio. However, I doubt that Roxio is using a quality AAC or mp3 encoder. They are probably using the FhG mp3 encoder (which sucks) and some off-brand AAC encoder. Stick with the major AAC encoders like Nero and iTunes for producing good quality files. On top of that, I doubt that Roxio's secure CD ripping is anywhere near what EAC or dbpoweramp have to offer.

[djjonnyt]

Thanks. Sounds like it DBPowerAmp for $18 with Nero AAC for free for ripping. Maybe DBPowerAmp for burning too for the extra $25... or continue to use Roxio for burning since I already have it. I will definitely be giving Roxio a much closer look once I re-load it to my new laptop.