Improve the quality of Ipod audio playback with an audio buffer?

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Podgeek66

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Hi Guys,

I came across this “Audio Buffer” (not a mini amp) while searching for a new headphone amp. It’s supposed to go between the Itouch and the amplifier to improve signal flow. :eek:

Just to clarify, the buffer is the silver one underneath the i-touch and i-dock.



This buffer wasn't designed especially for Ipods but more for pro-audio and HiFi setups.

However, it argues that it is particularly useful in synergizing the Ipod to any home based amplifiers. They said that because the Ipod’s audio output circuitry is different to home audio equipment. The two were never meant to work together unless it’s properly matched (by their audio buffer).

Here is their quote http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson_buffer_160.htm

“Impedance mismatch frequently occurs in PC and Ipod based audio systems. Due to their evident difference in operational environments, IPOD or PC sound cards use different output stage designs compared to home based audio amplifiers. That is why connecting an IPOD or PC sound card output to a Hi Fi system, will certainly result in impedance mismatch. The results are loss of dynamics and texture. The more obvious symptoms include a lack of attack in the music (not just bass, but every single note played), a lifeless and thin “digital sound” and a need to turn up the volume to achieve the same sound level.”

Does anyone have any experience with this buffer? Any thoughts on this concept of mismatching?
 
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Podgeek66

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Hi Code Monkey, Thanks for replying.

I am hoping to see if anyone has come across this buffer or this concept of impedance mismatching before. I don't think it's "snake oil". But it's new to me.
 

Code Monkey

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Hi Code Monkey, Thanks for replying.

I am hoping to see if anyone has come across this buffer or this concept of impedance mismatching before. I don't think it's "snake oil". But it's new to me.
Oh no, it's snake oil, like about 99.99% of anything in audiophile land that goes beyond quality source + quality amp + basic cables + quality speakers/headphones.

There's simply no such thing as impedance mismatching in this context. Impedance is the resistance to current in a circuit path. Whatever signal comes out of the iPod has absolutely no inherent impedance whatsoever, it's just the current provided by the LOD pin in the dock connector. Whatever impedance is involved the circuit path is related to your interconnect, and the truth of interconnects is a $15 interconnect works as good as a $1500 interconnect, and unless you've deliberately inserted some sort of resistor into the path, its impedance is neglible anyhow. Then the circuit path actually reaches the amp, and, again, there's no such thing as some sort of inherent impedance, it's just a signal. The amp takes the signal, passes it through it's amps and boosts its strength and sends it out again with enough juice to drive high impedance speakers and headphones clearly.

These things are based upon your gullibility and credit line. They want you to believe that the electrons travel through copper wire with a predilection for the "good sounding" ones to get lost if you don't spend money on their thingamajig, well, that's nonsense. They all make it or don't make it equally across the board.

EDIT: Here's the wikipedia article on impedance matching:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching

If you read it, the take away is that impedance matching is important when no amplification of the signal's power is possible so that maximum power transfer occurs across the circuit chain. It's also a concept that is inherent in the entire physical chain, you can't just stick one thingee into the middle of the circuit chain and create equal resistance across the chain from input to output. That's pretty much exactly the opposite of the scenario they're claiming their device is for.
 
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133mhzipod

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I am not technical minded but I would like to give my two cents worth on this topic.

As far as I know, impedance refers to resistant in any active or passive device. An example of this is speakers. Most home speakers have 8ohm impedance. Car speakers are mostly 4ohm. I remember the old days when valve amps have separated output taps for 4ohm & 8ohm speakers. If connected incorrectly, the speakers could deliver less power. Clearly, impedance is design dependent and affects performance.

The same goes with headphones. 300 – 30ohm is the range here and I don’t think they are the same. Lehmann and other head amps have output selections to better match different types of headphones.

I have a friend who has a small home studio and he told me how different types of microphones need to be matched to different mic-preamps.

I have not heard of this audio buffer but to simplify the issue and dismiss the concept completely maybe incorrect.
 
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Code Monkey

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I have not heard of this audio buffer but to simplify the issue and dismiss the concept completely maybe incorrect.
No, dismissing it is correct.

In the examples you're referencing, the point is that there is an inherent impedance to the *hardware* of the speakers. The current you feed those speakers, all other things being equal, dramatically changes the output of those speakers. Have a very sensitive, low impedance speaker, headphone, etc. and feeding it high current can be too much and you get extremely loud, distorted sound. Have a very high impedance speaker or headphone and feed too weak of a current and you get soft volume no matter how high you crank the volume knob. This is why good amps have a gain switch so you can boost or not boost the signal appropriately for the sensitivity of your output device of choice.

This has nothing to do with this device. You can't change the inherent impedance of the touch hardware itself, the audio out signal comes out at whatever current it comes out at, but the key thing is that it's not particularly powerful anyhow. The interconnect is negligible player in the chain, and the amp itself has but one purpose: to strengthen the audio signal that reaches it so it can better drive your output device of choice.

Yes, you could use a pre-amp that will make all sources hit your main amp at the same current for equal performance across the board no matter what source you feed it from. That would be a legitimate manipulation of the signal from source to your deck amp. However, notice this device is just a wooden box with no interface, just in and out jacks, that purports to be optimizing signal flow and magically matching the impedance of the touch to their amp such that you get superior "attack and dynamics" in the final audio output, well, as Mochan put it, poppycock. This is just one more expensive "black box" voodoo audiphool piece of kit to make people's money disappear while making the company's coffers swell.
 

Podgeek66

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Guys, thank you all for maintaining this debate. However, please allow me to clarify that the device in question is NOT the little wooden i-Dock. The Audio Buffer in question is that silver aluminum cased machine underneath the i-Dock. It's made by an Australian company called Burson Audio. I apologize for all the confusion caused.



Here are their links again:

http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson_buffer_160.htm
http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson_audio_buffer.htm

After reading some of their magazine reviews and customer feedback I am pretty sure that the buffer works in matching up CD players and even soundcards to amplifiers. Customer feedback on ebay are all very positive.... But there is no evidence yet that it works with Ipods.

Their website has made reference to the output impedance of various CD players. It mentioned that the buffer lowers the output impedance so that it can better match the amplifier.

My next question is, what are the output impedance of an i-touch and other models of ipods?

Cheers.
 

Code Monkey

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But there is no evidence yet that it works.
Fixed that for you...

Okay, so it's the silver thingee, it's still poppycock. Audiophools praise all manner of crap that couldn't possibly work outside of a fantasy novel.

Again, you can't change *impedance* of a current, heck, I'm not even sure the term impedance applies in this case since it's strictly the concept of resistance applied to an alternating current, and I'm pretty sure the output and input in the LOD to amp is strictly DC. Hardware has an impedance or resistance (depending on context). You can apply impedance to the current to reduce it, but you can't change the impedance itself of the current, because it's just current, the impedance comes into play with the hardware. Impedance is inherent to the hardware itself and there's no sense in matching it because that doesn't do anything if the issue even exists in what I'm reasonably certain is strictly a DC circuit.

Please, buy a clue and save your money.
 

Mochan

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Personally I don't see the point. All you need is an amp. Why would you need another gadget in between the player and the amp? The amp can do everything it needs to turn the signal into good sound.
 

Podgeek66

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I have all my songs stored on i-touch in the lossless format. By definition, they should sound as good as CDs. But they are not…. The sound from the i-touch is nowhere near as good as my $220, 15 years old Marantz CDP . The rest of my system is not hi end but I can detect a lot of difference. The CD player sounds more alive while the I-touch sounds half dead by comparison. Has anyone done any direct comparison between CD players and an IPOD touch in an audio system (ie A full scale amplifier + speakers system)? I would love to hear your finding.
 

Code Monkey

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I've never noticed a single difference between my lossy files and the original CD, but then I'm an objectivist. I test my self against ABX comparisons. I trust empirical data over subjective comparisons.

If you're playing lossless files through the LOD to the amp, that is the same as the audio that was on the CD. The only possible sources for differences are the fact that your CD deck might have a digital out to your amp and the touch is definitely going to be analogue (but given its age, probably not); there is a volume level difference between the two sources (most likely in my opinion); if these are SACDs, your CD deck could be feeding the SACD layer to your stereo deck and but touch will only be feeding the "plain" CD layer's audio (although the differences between the SACD layer and the regular CD layer have failed double blind testing conclusively so only offer this as a remote possibility); the CD deck might be applying some sort of EQ change in its internal pre-amp stage; or you only think you're hearing differences.

In the first and second case, I would be amazed if cranking the volume knob a little to the right for the touch didn't destroy any differences, the third case goes against reliable testing, and the fourth case could be addressed by playing with your stereo deck's EQ. The fifth case speaks for itself.
 

Code Monkey

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Fools on e-bay claiming hearing improvement mean nothing....
Yep, there is a well known correlation between being the sort who is willing to spend money on these doodads in the first place, not wanting the often ridiculous amounts of money to have been for naught, and subsequently "hearing" improvements from the doodads as a result. Unfortunately, there are no cases of these same people being able to hear the same results once somebody takes away the factor of them knowing when the doodads are in place or not. Double blind testing destroys many an expensive audio enhancement. It's also why manufacturers of these devices discount double blind testing (or even something as basic as matched level testing, c.f. this and and my followup (that, unfortunately, didn't garner any responses :()).

Not strictly related, but I was reading a page on speaker cables the other day that found that plain old lamp cord from Lowes or Home Depot not only performed as well as any of the expensive stuff out there, but sometimes was better than official speaker cabling because it oxidized less over time than some of the cheaper cabling you can buy.
 

Cold Irons

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Yep, there is a well known correlation between being the sort who is willing to spend money on these doodads in the first place, not wanting the often ridiculous amounts of money to have been for naught, and subsequently "hearing" improvements from the doodads as a result.
Exactly....and this is not new with PCs/Digital Audio. Lots of snake oil out there, and you can assume that 99.9% is bogus.

'Course, I was convinced that 128k mp3s sounded worse than CDs/lossless until doing a bunch of ABX with dbPowerAmp a couple years ago. Opps....not suprising, but my 50+ yr old ears just can't tell the difference.
 

Mochan

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I have all my songs stored on i-touch in the lossless format. By definition, they should sound as good as CDs. But they are not…. The sound from the i-touch is nowhere near as good as my $220, 15 years old Marantz CDP . The rest of my system is not hi end but I can detect a lot of difference. The CD player sounds more alive while the I-touch sounds half dead by comparison. Has anyone done any direct comparison between CD players and an IPOD touch in an audio system (ie A full scale amplifier + speakers system)? I would love to hear your finding.
I'm sorry but I'm guessing I'm understanding your post wrong, because duh of course the iTouch would sound worse than a Marantz, the iTouch has no amplification whereas the Marantz is an amplifier in itself. There is no question that music played through a Marantz receiver would sound way better than music coming from your iPod. It doesn't matter if the Marantz is 2 decades old -- actually the Marantz we have here at home is 20 years old and it sounds better than our newer Pioneer receiver. It sure as hell is going to sound better than a piddly portable player.

Unless what you mean is the iPod Touch sounds inferior hooked up to the Marantz as opposed to a CD player hooked up to the Marantz. In which case I still call foul -- I've done listening tests like this and I found no discernable difference between music from the CD player and properly-encoded 128 bit rate MP3s from the portable -- let's not even talk about lossless. The amp does a great job filling out the sound. This is all subjective of course because I don't do blind testing in this case.

In this case more than likely your problem is that the two players had different impedance and your iPod Touch probably had a higher rating, so it needs more juice to sound at the same level. You left the volume setting the same so it would come out that the iPod is weaker than the CD Player -- and you would interpret that as the iTouch sounding half-dead in comparison,. But lo and behold just up the volume level up to the same level as the CD Player and all differences fly in the wind.

I mean, when you compare headsets surely you don't listen at the same volume level for the different cans? Because headsets have difference impedance so when I do listening tests on cans I adjust the volume level to a comfortable listening level for each headset when I do my comparisons.

I would also say that you definitely don't need that audio buffer if you plan to hook it up to your Marantz -- most Marantz receivers have their own audio/buffer pre-amp in them already (receivers are usually a combination of tuner, pre-amp and power amp). You only need that audio buffer if what you have is a standalone power amp -- if you even need it at all.
 

Podgeek66

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Hi Mocha,

My Marantz is a CD player, not an amplifier. When I said "half dead" I mean a lack of dynamics, not just volume. At the same volume, the i-pod fails to reproduce the same level of dynamics in music. ie. less punch and definition in the bass and less realistic volcal....

Guys thank you all for your inputs,

After reading (Googling) heavily in the last few days I have taken the plunge and ordered one of these audio buffers from a Canadian retailer. I will mainly use it on my main system (Marantz 53 + NAD integrated + Quad11) Then I will try it on my i-touch. If it improves the i-touch then it will be a bonus for me.

I started this thread hoping to find someone who has the experience in using such a device on the i-touch… but looks like I will be the guinn pig this time around. If I make no mention of this topic in the next weeks then I have probably wasted my money. If it turns out to be any good then I shall share my findings with all of you. : )

I don’t think I am an audiophile and I don’t know exactly what that term means… But I enjoy listening to music and love to enhance my listening experience when my budget allows. There is a lot of BS in the audio industry, just like everywhere else in life. But declaring a whole industry as 99.9% snake oil and discrediting every single audio enthusiast as morons is overconfident.

No offence.

I have never listened to any very expensive systems or cables (Probably never will) but my $200 second hand AudioQuest cable is absolutely more superior to a $15 PlayStation cable. With that cable I got biger bass, sweeter vocal and much much lower noise floor. Analogue signal transfer is not as black and white as “make it or don’t make it”

Cheers,
 

Mochan

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Well let us know how it goes, then. If it works great then more power to you. None of us here have used the item I think, so all we have said is conjecture. It could be the holy grail of music for all we know!
 
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